NN - EP03 - Who Deserves The Keys To Everyone’s Data

Originally released December 2019

Two truths power this episode: creativity can be a lifeline, and strong encryption protects everyone. We kick off with author and podcaster Peter Serafine, who breaks down the real work behind a first book—from early morning writing sprints to paying for editing and learning the hard math of self‑publishing. That honest look at process and patience sets the stage for why a mic can be therapy, not theater: a place to ask better questions and invite smarter answers.

Then we sit down with Josh Brunty, a tenured professor of digital forensics at Marshall University’s highly regarded Forensic Science Graduate Program, to dig into the encryption backdoor debate. He frames the issue simply: the same cryptography that frustrates single investigations secures banking, journalism, dissidents abroad, and everyday privacy at home. Backdoors don’t stay with “the good guys.” They weaken the system for everyone. We explore narrow warrants that target exactly what’s needed, not the entire device; why overbroad searches erode trust; and how today’s global tech ecosystem turns U.S. policy choices into worldwide consequences.

We also get practical about the lab: triage and AI that help analysts find relevant frames in hours of video; the stubborn complexity of codecs and rendering; the value of disciplined documentation and consent‑based collection; and why “more data” isn’t the same as “better evidence.” Expect frank stories, a dash of humor, and clear takeaways any curious listener can use to think more critically about digital rights, public safety, and the future of forensic work.

If the tradeoffs around privacy, security, and justice matter to you, hit play. Then tell us where you land: call 541‑314‑4271 

If this conversation moved you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find it.

Transcript

Host Returns And Guest Intro

SPEAKER_11 0:51

Oh my gosh, I'm telling you, every time I sit down in this chair, that recorded audience gets more enthusiastic, and it is just heartwarming. It is very, very heartwarming. Come on. I gotta get the show going. There are people waiting on this. Thank you. Alright, listen, Larry Compton back in the saddle, and I am excited to finally be back after much needed, unexpected break to spend time with family and loved ones. And I gotta tell you, I feel like a million bucks. I have so many people I want to talk with on the show, uh, so many things I wish I would have recorded during my break, but that was not the focus. And you know, I've got a lifetime to do that. So it was really special. Thank you so much to my guests for their patience. My guests that were supposed to be in episode two. That would include my uh nephew, Peter Serafine, who is an author of the book Progress, really, and host of the Liberty Lighthouse podcast. I'd like to introduce you to Peter now. Alright, man. Um, so essentially I am I was fascinated, absolutely fascinated when I learned that you had wrote a book. And let me tell you a little bit about why. Because I, of course, you know, I mean, I love to read and I love to write, and I've I've always enjoyed writing, but it absolutely blows me away the people that can put pen to paper and actually put out a book or multiple books or multiple short stories or who share their creativity that way. It's fascinating to me and mind-boggling because I don't know where the hell do you find the time. You know, that's the sort of thing that that absolutely is crazy to me. I was just, in fact, uh he won't be in in the next episode or in this episode, but another guest, same same questions. I I'm just like, I just don't know where you find the time to do those things. And I don't think a lot of people realize not just how much work goes into you know creating a book, but how fruitless it typically is financially, even for those who are very successful at it, you know, it's not a huge moneymaker type of thing, you know, and I don't think a lot of people think about that. So what what made you put pen to paper and you know, put put those thoughts down for your book, Progress, really? Which by the way, the reviews on Amazon absolutely amazing, man. Are those friends? What the hell?

SPEAKER_07 4:00

Well, a couple of them are friends, you know. I I know a few of them, but I don't know them all. And and uh that's probably the thing that I'm most proud of, like 4.9 stars right now. So yeah, that's that's exciting.

SPEAKER_11 4:13

Yeah, I was like reading them and just going, wow, this is pretty freaking cool. Because, you know, number one, people don't l often give feedback, especially when you're doing something new, right? So, like this podcast to most people who have known me for the last 20 plus years, you know, is completely out of the blue to them. They don't know anything about this part of my career. And, you know, that was not I wasn't hiding anything. If anybody asked, I'd have told them. Uh same, same with a lot of other things. You know, I would share what I can share, but you know, uh they just don't provide feedback like that out of the blue, you know what I mean, typically. Yeah, so that was really, really impressive to me. What what what else have you what else have you heard and gotten off the street? Is it only through Amazon that it's available?

Self‑Publishing Reality And Costs

SPEAKER_07 5:07

No, you can order it from any place that orders, you know, any bookstore that that orders through Ingram, which is the worldwide distribution network. Right. But I have it in an ebook for like 99 cents from a whole bunch of different places. The paperback is is mostly through Amazon. As a matter of fact, I think all of my book sales, paperback, real book sales, have either come from local shops where I gave them to them myself or through Amazon. I don't think I sold any fruit spots at all for any other freaking order store. There's still anything right about the fruitless side of it. When I started the process, I did a little research as to you know, what can I expect and everything I registered, and unknown person like myself writing their first book and and self-publishing like I did, is it's gonna be lucky to sell 50 copies.

SPEAKER_04 6:00

Right.

SPEAKER_07 6:01

So when my first month went by and I sold 45, I was pretty excited.

SPEAKER_04 6:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 6:07

And I'm I'm getting I'm approaching a hundred now, so it's still not breaking any records or anything like that. But it's it was exciting for me to have sold more than I expected, even though I still have to sell like a hundred more just to break even the cost that I put into it. And I did all the design and everything myself. Right. So I didn't pay a cover designer. I the only person I paid was an editor. Right. Right and and yeah, I've got to sell like a a hundred more copies just to make back the money I put into paying the editor.

SPEAKER_11 6:38

Right, right. And that's another thing, you know, that that people don't, you know, often take into consideration when we, you know, first glance at a subject or first glance at something, or you know, you look at uh oh, a book, you know, you just don't think about all the moving parts it takes to actually produce something like that. And uh I I do I I know others do. I'm just saying that it it just is so fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_07 7:05

No, there was a lot more involved than I knew before I started the process.

Why Write: Oath, Politics, Overreach

SPEAKER_11 7:10

Yeah. Yeah. I mean we well w w did you where'd you start? Tell tell me how you got or well, let's start with why you got started. Why did you decide to start putting it down?

SPEAKER_07 7:23

Well, you know, like you, I I once swore an oath to uh support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. And I was sitting home reading the news and and over the last year and a half, two years, I started becoming more interested in politics and seeing mostly individual states, but sometimes on the federal level, just blatant oversteps that our government was going beyond the the scope of the Constitution. Right, necessarily pushing.

SPEAKER_11 7:55

So not the incompetence, not the incompetence, but overstepping, right?

SPEAKER_07 8:00

Not yeah, yeah, okay. Just to clarify. The incompetence is a completely separate issue. Right.

SPEAKER_12 8:04

That's I just I just wanted to make that. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

SPEAKER_07 8:08

I just wanted to make that so I I sat there and I thought, well, I I'm just turning into a bitter cranky old man complaining all the time, and rather than just complaining, I should do something.

SPEAKER_12 8:22

Right.

SPEAKER_07 8:23

And then I thought, well, maybe I should just write a book. And I mean you've seen it. It's a little sixty-page you know, just a little one man's view of the kind of book. It's it's nothing overly impressive.

SPEAKER_11 8:36

Well, I mean, uh, you know, and uh that's of course that's what you'd say. It's very impressive to me. And but so so when you started the process then, where did you start?

SPEAKER_07 8:46

Did you start researching how to publish, self-publish or no, I I started with with just my thoughts first, writing just on paper, old-fashioned pen and paper. And then I started putting it to uh electronic media, putting it in through my phone or through a laptop. I would write for half an hour or so every morning before I went to work. And when I got a couple of chapters in, I thought, Alright, well, when I finish this thing, then what do I do?

SPEAKER_04 9:17

Right.

SPEAKER_12 9:20

Then what do I do?

SPEAKER_07 9:22

Is that where you reached out to uh looking into the you know how to format a manuscript and how to submit it to publishers, or you know, is it even worth submitting it for publishers? How do you self-publish? Right.

SPEAKER_11 9:35

And when did the editor come into play?

SPEAKER_07 9:38

After I thought I was pretty well done with the writing part, then I started looking around for somebody to edit it because you know I'm I I'm a high school graduate, I don't have any further education than that. I've never written anything for publication purposes ever. And I I I knew there was gonna be editorial stuff in it. Oh yeah that that needed corrected. Right.

Process: Drafting, Editing, And Time

SPEAKER_11 10:03

Yeah, I have you know, that's one of my weaknesses as well. I love being creative, but I'm not gonna polish my creativity. You know, I learned a long time ago, fortunately, you know, that you have to just let it go. Right? I can, you know, with something like this podcast, I can recreate my picture every time I drop a new episode, right? I get to repaint my picture. You know, so with writing, it's every time you, you know, you put down a paragraph with with music every time you, you know, create a song or live performances. It to me is all, you know, tied together, the creative aspect of it. And it's not a little thing. You know, I know uh like I said, I know you that's that's who you are and how you are about it, but it's definitely not a little thing. So so the book is out there getting awesome reviews, and then you decided what at that point, like, oh, you know, I think I'm gonna do the podcast as well, along with the book, and just kind of keep it going. Is it like a therapy thing for you? Like like it is for me?

SPEAKER_07 11:12

There's a step in the middle there, actually. After writing the book and publishing it and having it out there for sale, I broke my foot and I was out of work for a month.

SPEAKER_11 11:21

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_07 11:22

So while I was home, I built a website, and then once I built a website, I thought, why don't I start a blog?

SPEAKER_04 11:32

Right.

SPEAKER_07 11:32

So I started a blog and I started to write blog posts. One of my coworkers said when I went back to work, one of my coworkers says, you know, blogs are kind of out, nobody really reads them anymore. You should do a podcast, especially many. And I thought, I really don't want to do a podcast. And then I was talking to my my 25-year-old son, and he said the same thing. He was like, Dad, blog blogs are kind of out. If you want to reach anybody under 40, you should probably do a podcast.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

Right. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 12:02

So then I, you know, I I bought like a$40 mic and started doing a podcast.

SPEAKER_11 12:07

Right, right. Yeah, it's it's something that you know, I like the audio production piece is the creative piece of audio production, is what you know, I fell in love with being in the studio in a professional studio all by myself all night long, just being creative and having access to those types of tools, just you know, in that type of environment. Just just you know, y it's just fun. It's just plain fun. And so, you know, at this stage in my career, I I I realized, you know, what is fun and what is important, and and and this show has helped me therapeutically, really, in this stage of my life. I get to communicate more with family like you. I get to communicate more, you know, with my wife, my son, my friends, my peers. I it's just such a win-win for me. Whether or not anybody else listens, it doesn't even matter, you know. And that's kind of how I feel about what you're doing, right? I get the sense that it's therapeutic, it's helping you cope with the frustration you're feeling about these issues, right?

Blogging To Podcasting

SPEAKER_07 13:18

Yes, yes. It's helping me deal with the frustration. I try not to make anything, you know, partisan. Uh I I try not to use the Democrat versus Republican or Progressive versus Conservative. No, I I fail miserably at times, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 13:35

But I tried to I try to address issues just via common sense.

SPEAKER_04 13:40

Right.

unknown 13:40

Right.

SPEAKER_07 13:41

The most recent one that I posted just a couple of days ago was about the the big push for a$15 minimum wage. And a lot of the data that I got was from a a study out your way from the University of Washington. And I try to look at it as, you know, this is what the data says, and this is what I would think as com you know, using common sense and spelling out how I think about it. Right. Not just saying yes, it's good or no, it's bad. Right. I I try to make sense of it.

SPEAKER_11 14:13

Right. But, you know, at the same time, those damn people in Washington, those progressives in Washington, those freaking assholes in Washington State.

SPEAKER_12 14:26

Oh, we're so progressive.

SPEAKER_11 14:28

I don't know. Yeah. I, you know, uh it's something that I find interesting, how how to convey information, right? And I've always been fascinated with it. I said the other day in a discussion, I think I said it on uh Twitter to somebody who was essentially being discriminated against. But no, that was a different situation. My apologies. I don't remember where I said it. But what I said was, you know, I try not to provide complete thoughts to people. You know what I mean? Because when you provide complete thoughts, people either immediately dismiss it or accept it, right? Usually it's dismiss it. It's it's done. The it's over, and and our human brains are wired such a way that we're not going to spend time, you know, researching, evaluating, even considering something we've already made a decision on. You know, unless there's you know some overwhelming reason to, you know, typically. So I I try not I try to provide, I learned this the hard way, by the way, when I was in government, working in government, and really pushing for some issues. And uh long story short, you know, the just giving enough information that makes them go, hmm, I should really consider this or put some more thought to this, or even feel like, oh wow, that's interesting, or it enough information where they can make a decision on whether or not they should think about it. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_07 16:00

Right. And I did that in or I at least attempted to do that for the the book, the blog, and now the podcast. I try to raise more questions than answer than give answers. Right. Right. I'm not smart enough to have the answers, is my general rule of thumb. That's how I am smart enough to ask questions.

Creativity As Therapy

SPEAKER_11 16:18

Right, right. And that's me as well. And that's always been my role. Uh I personally, that's how I've always looked at myself, is I'm the one that's, you know, just smart enough to have, you know, and and you know, not giving a shit enough to raise my hand and stand up. And, you know, in the service, as you know, I'd be the guy volunteering.

SPEAKER_10 16:39

You'd never volunteer, you don't volunteer.

SPEAKER_07 16:44

You learn in basic training. You know, I was I was in the Navy and and we learned in like the first week of basic training. NABY stood for never again volunteer yourself.

SPEAKER_12 16:54

Right. But I did all the time.

SPEAKER_11 16:58

It was one of those things where, you know, what do they say? Uh what's that thing about crazy, you know, doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.

SPEAKER_07 17:06

Yeah, I'm exact definition of crazy.

SPEAKER_11 17:13

But so so the podcast, how's how's that how's that going? How do you do you have a rhythm? Do you have what you need uh there? How's it going with that?

SPEAKER_07 17:23

Well, I you know, I think it's it's going well for me. I've I think I've settled into a little bit of a rhythm.

SPEAKER_11 17:27

Well, that's what's interesting.

SPEAKER_07 17:28

I I now do a new topic every other week. And then on the the week in the middle is a follow-up show. So, like I said, I just did an episode on Friday for the$15 minimum wage, and then this coming week I will have a follow-up where I address questions, comments, and concerns that I may have received regarding the podcast or things that I may have just forgot.

SPEAKER_11 17:52

Like minds, man. That's the same sort of thing I'm doing with the what's your opinion segment is you know, one episode, the first episode of the month, introduce a topic, second episode of the month, you know, we have listener feedback if anybody gives a shit.

SPEAKER_07 18:07

And that seems to be the problem that I'm having is getting the feedback. Like like you said earlier, people just don't volunteer their feedback, they'll they'll listen to it and either agree with it or don't agree with it, but they don't share that thought.

Common Sense Takes On Policy

SPEAKER_11 18:19

Right. And that's okay. You have to learn, you know, to deal with that. And that's what I you know, I'm so excited about, you know, helping my son navigate life with because there were times where I was at such a low point because I felt like, why? I I feel like I'm really doing great things and nobody gives a shit. But the fact of the matter is, is that sometimes, you know, other people got shit going on in their lives, Larry, you know, number one. But number two, sometimes people uh, you know, are in awe. Sometimes people don't know what to say, right? Even when they have strong feelings one way or another, whether they dislike it a lot or like it a lot, they just don't know how to say it. And that's okay, especially if it's out of the blue. So when you are not a writer, you write a brand new book, right? People are like, wow, that's that's crazy that he did that. I didn't expect Peter to write a book, you know what I mean? I didn't expect Peter to start a podcast and holy crap, who knew Peter sounded like you know David Attenborough or something, you know, I mean, you know, it's like that. But it's just it's a shock to the system, and we're wired as humans, you know, to protect against those things. So we naturally have that reaction. You know, I I again something I learned the hard way when you know I got into DJing and being in front of crowds and that sort of thing. I just want it. It's I'd be in front of the crowd, I could be it could be, you know, a hundred, a couple. Couple hundred or thousands of people, and I was on and I had a great time, but as soon as I was done and I could turn that switch off, I wanted to be away from everybody, right? You know what I mean? And that's what I love about what I have here is that I'm I can be home, I can be with my family more, and I still get to communicate and speak and chat and keep up with folks more, stay in touch with people like you who are doing very impressive things, and that that to me is just you know a blessing. So I thank you so much for the time. I'm going to wrap things up here and I'll be introducing this in the podcast and providing links to your stuff and everything, of course. But before I do let you go, how's the family? How's everybody doing?

Communicating To Spark Thought

SPEAKER_07 20:50

Oh, life is wonderful. I uh got the woman of my dreams, and we bought a big, beautiful 1900 house that I it's you know from the Victorian era, but it's not Victorian style, so it's kind of unique. And just you know, got a good job and life is good.

SPEAKER_11 21:09

Yeah, also, man, I love you know, that's the thing about Facebook. I just, you know, everybody bitches about all the noise, but it like like I said in the first episode, it's all about filters and understanding, you know, when and what you want to see and when you want to see it, you know. And I just love seeing that from you know, family and friends, the happiness, the growth. Even even the troubles, the struggles. I know sometimes that's where I constant live stream my thoughts, it seems like, to to those uh who might be on there with me, but that's that's what I use that platform for. It's it's therapy for me to see you guys and see, you know, keep abreast of your lives and and keep me out of this self-isolation.

SPEAKER_08 21:58

Well, I saw on Facebook that you're planning to kidnap Graham or you know Operation Kidnap Mom, from your perspective. Yeah. When when's uh when's mom heading out west?

SPEAKER_09 22:07

Uh your mom or your mom. My mom, my grandma.

SPEAKER_11 22:15

So I'm I'm gonna go get her uh Friday. I'm gonna fly out and then spend the weekend hanging out, and then we're gonna fly back Monday here. She'll spend the week here and then go back at the end of the that week. Yeah. So I can't wait, man. I cannot wait. I am so excited.

SPEAKER_07 22:35

She's only like two and a half, three hours away from me, and I still can't I'm I'm still low on the seniority poll at at the post office. So for me to get more than more than one day in a row off is challenging. So I I want to go see her all the time, but yeah, the only time I get two days in a row, I'm either sick or it's like tomorrow, Veterans Day.

SPEAKER_11 22:56

Oh, I know. And you and you don't have to tell me. I mean, I I you know that that's the story of my life. It's I'm always so close, right? I travel, people want, hey, how come you didn't come see me? Like, you know, you're only you're only a couple hours from me. Well, you know, I just traveled 16 hours and you know, I've been awake for over 24, and I don't really have it in me to drive another couple hours. So I'm sorry. Plus, I gotta work, you know, uh long days, 14-hour days. So it's just it's just hard to make the time, and that's I think what I feel most blessed about right now is that I have the time for a hobby, actually, for the first time in my life. A hobby that I can enjoy and share with my family and friends, and that's just so amazing to me, you know, absolutely amazing. So I'm excited about the trip. I don't do you remember last year we got to go up for Thanksgiving and missed you.

SPEAKER_07 23:58

Yeah, yeah. That's happened a couple of times where I'll be up, you know, the weekend after you guys go home or something like that.

Podcast Formats And Audience Feedback

SPEAKER_11 24:05

Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure, you know, I'm not gonna, you know, because I won't see, I'm sure, very many people. As usual, it's last minute that I pop in and you know, feel horrible popping in on people like that. But yeah, I uh we we just had that week last year of Thanksgiving at grandma's, and to me it was so therapeutic, I literally haven't don't recall, you know, us as a family having an entire week like that together in many, many years, many years. Mom. Yeah, mom, Stacy, and Ryan and I all together, you know, at the house and just spending time together and you know, eating and seeing family and friends. It was so therapeutic. And I felt like I was off the grid, you know, up there. Up in the mountains. Yeah, you know, you get you feel like you're off the grid. And so I'm like, oh, this is awesome. You know, I want more of this. I want more of this, and and so on.

SPEAKER_07 25:10

Well, I have one story that I wanted to tell. Whenever I think of you, this is one of the first stories that pops into my head. Oh no. No. For for the listeners who don't know, yes, I'm your nephew, but there's only a few years of age difference between us. You know, we were both in Desert Storm, for example. But anyway, I never called you Uncle Larry, you were always just Larry because of the age thing.

SPEAKER_10 25:35

Right.

SPEAKER_07 25:36

Well, I can one of my favorite memories is being at Graham's house, and you, me, and Paul starting a Monopoly game. And you and I, as kids, neither one of us ever liked to lose anything. And and between us, we got Paul out of the game in no time. And it was just you and I. Right. And we played that same Monopoly game for like two days. Like we went to bed, we bankrupted the bank, we were writing IOUs from the bank to each other.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

I remember.

SPEAKER_07 26:15

I remember staying up until we couldn't stay up any later, and then like marking whose turn it was and going to bed. And then the next day playing, continuing the game. And I don't think we ever finished it. I think we eventually caught.

SPEAKER_12 26:30

Oh no, I I saved our spots. I saved our spots.

SPEAKER_11 26:35

That's so crazy to me, you know, how you don't remember things until somebody else, you know, refreshes that, like, you know, and you go pull it out of cold storage and dust it off, and you're like, oh my gosh, I can't even remember I had this memory, you know. Wow, that's amazing, man. I love you, man. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Peter. I really, really appreciate it.

Family, Time, And Connection

SPEAKER_05 27:22

Y'all don't know what's real and y'all don't leave in this game when I be saying half the time. Y'all be thinking when I'm gonna cappala mamma line I got it's beautiful that just now some man I got it. Wanna live like this, like it's like running it's gonna leave me. I don't know what's real and even understand when I be saying every time. Y'all be thinking when I'm rap, I'm kept a lot. I'm on my line. I gotta spit it all the time, but that's just not what's on my mind. I gotta tell the truth to these people out the roof, gotta scream it to the ones that always roll up in the clue. Gotta tell you what it's like to do the wanna live like this. Live is life, golden kid, golden ones, I'm Let me rap a bit and tell you what it is. I'm the greatest chosen one. I got this golden life I live. I told everybody that, but it's just a line shit. I'm just trying to find out how I really fit in. I'm a motherfucking mistake. Yeah, you know you cannot make me different.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Wanna change my team, wanna get a different life, wanna live true, wanna get a fun flight, live like my stream.

SPEAKER_05 29:09

Y'all don't know it's real or not. Y'all don't even understand what I be saying half the time. Y'all be thinking when I rap, I'm cap a lot. I'm on my line. I gotta spit it all the time. But that's just not what's on my mind. I gotta tell the truth to these people. Wanna live like this. Life is life, go them here, go and give me Y'all don't know it's real or not. Y'all don't even understand what I be saying half the time. Y'all be thinking when I'm rap, I'm capable. I'm on my line. I gotta spit it all the time. But that's just not what's on my mind. I gotta tell the truth to these people out the roof. Gotta scream it to the ones that always roll up in a coup. Gotta tell you what it's like to be the one and live like this, lavish life, golden kid, golden one, chosen.

Memory Lane: The Endless Monopoly Game

SPEAKER_11 30:14

Chosen from the truth, aka Ryan, my son. That is our world premiere track, our very first track that we did together, kind of covertly, if you will. The truth was unaware of uh what was actually taking place a good part of that time. Um, you might be thinking, well, that's kind of weird. Well, I did a public post on our Patreon site, so you want to check that out for uh more information on that. But just so proud of that young man. Up next, we are going to be chatting with Josh Brunty, professor of digital forensics at Marshall University's Forensic Science Graduate Program, which is a highly regarded forensic science graduate program in the country, one of the most highly regarded programs. And Josh is a tenured professor there with tons of knowledge and experience, someone I highly respect. We're gonna get to chat about the encryption backdoor debate of 2019. Awesome. So first and foremost, Josh, I really, really, really want to hear your opinion on this, you know, renewed encryption backdoor debate that we go through seemingly every year. And I know it's going to be one of those, you know, non-stop, always challenged things by law enforcement because we always want more access to evidence, but very, very interested in hearing your opinion on the topic.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Yeah, one of the things that that really and and you're right, this pops up every year. You have two diametrically opposed opinions on how encryption should be accessed or how mobile devices, you name it, any type of digital evidence should be handled. And those two diametrically opposed opinions have a reasonable, justified argument of why they want into these devices. So I draw back from the inner geek inside of me draws back to a particular Star Trek film. And one of my favorite Star Trek films, The Wrath of Khan, 1982.

SPEAKER_04 32:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Where Spock himself, he says logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. So when we look at this argument, we bring that into the mix and say, what benefits our society the most? What what when we're looking at this overall fabric of it, do we uh break encryption and put people's safety and security at risk on this? Or do we open encryption to solve a case or two? If you look at that in the grand scheme of things, it may be better for us to say, okay, let's let's tighten our controls on encryption because this is the same encryption we use for banking back ends. These are the the same encryption that we use to to transact data out of countries where people are losing their heads because they're communicating with someone here in the US.

Debut Track With Son: The Truth

SPEAKER_04 33:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

And I would feel very bad if if I have to access something for my case that gets a hundred thousand people killed in another country.

Introducing Josh Brunty

SPEAKER_11 33:40

Yeah, and that's the other challenge is that this isn't, you know, it's it's not just a US issue or a geographical, you know, issue in any way. This decision by the US government impacts the entire world, much like China's decisions, you know, impact the entire world and will impact the U.S., you know, substantially in regards to their, you know, unfettered access to any communication in their country as of January 1st, uh, no matter who you are, right? So I I agree with you wholeheartedly that we're always going to be in this battle, and both sides are always gonna have, you know, justifiable positions. But your point about, you know, the the the needs of the few, that that is just so, you know, dead on, in my opinion, to describe this issue. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, and and you know, I think what bothers me most about the renewed discussions, particularly William Barr's speech this year, is that it seems to be more towards, you know, network access and encryption in general rather than back in 2015 when it was, you know, a particular device or platformer unlocking a certain device. Did you get do you get that sense as well?

Framing The Encryption Backdoor Debate

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah, I think it's it's uh it's far reaching from the iPhone debate that popped up in 2015 when we were looking at San Bernardino there. You're looking at a government that's really wanting to re-establish the authority that they had the pre-Snowden leaks. And what becomes out of that is we're having issues of solving certain cases, especially at a very high level, because we don't have that level of access that we once had, or at least I say we, I say the federal government. And when we consider that as kind of our role as humans, to say, okay, we can give the government that that level of access, but let's make sure that we're not degrading our future as humans by degrading our encryption standards. Because if we do that, then we're setting up a system that is corrupt. We're setting up a system that is really made to fail.

SPEAKER_11 35:59

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

And in all intents and purposes, it's like putting a screen door on a battleship because you're building all of these controls and then you're putting this ratty-tat door on a on a something that really should have some pretty heavy controls with it. Wow. It's uh we're we're in a whole new level of warfare now. And if we're not protecting ourselves on the front and the back end and encryption is added to that debate, we're we're really gonna open up some critical vulnerabilities that we're gonna pay for down the road. Can I feel personally?

Needs Of Many vs Needs Of Few

SPEAKER_11 36:31

I I agree wholeheartedly, and I just want to say two things. Bonus points for the Star Trek reference, and bonus points for another analogy that just blows me away. That's a great one. The screen door on a submarine. That's you know, that's kind of the crux of my frustration with this debate, you know, since the 90s and the clipper chip thing. And and you know, the gist is that we in law enforcement have access to so much data and so many things, and rightfully so, right? Military and law enforcement has access to technologies well in advance of the general public. And that's, you know, for a good reason. People need to understand there are good reasons that, you know, that that that things are done behind closed doors, that some things aren't said out loud, that that not everything's, you know, out there. But my problem is their argument never changes, regardless of who's in power, again, not a political thing, but the argument from law enforcement never changes. We need this data. Well, you need all data. So really, you know, you're you're you're asking for unfettered access to everything. Now I understand there are controls in place and and we'll be using you know search warrants and proper legal methods by all means. But my point here is that their you know shining example is that do you remember the Symphony app? Yeah. Yeah. Certainly do, yeah, yeah. And how they essentially, you know, uh tout the backdoor access through an independent third-party key escrow. Right? Right, right. Big problem in my opinion.

From Device Unlocking To Network Access

SPEAKER_00 38:13

No, you're you're exactly right. And when this debate first came out, especially if you go back and look at a specific case, I think the the hinging argument on this one was the Riley versus California case, which eventually went to the Supreme Court as the United States versus Riley, where the Supreme Court voted and said that law enforcement must now have a warrant before they can even search a cell phone. Well, some of the Vanderbilt Law Review papers that came out after that, I think it was Adam Gershowitz wrote a an article that came out in April of 2016 for Vanderbilt Law Review, and he said that the big issue is not accessing the data on these phones. It is that a lot of these warrants that they're issuing and a lot of these searches are too broad. Right. That we really can narrow our search and and put put warrants in the place of a judge and say, you know what, you don't need access to an entire phone for a misdemeanor drug crime. Yes, I'll sign this warrant, but here is the narrow scope of your warrant. You're looking at these messages to this particular person. And in a sense, I guess the whole argument, if you read that entire paper, and I give this to classes every year here at Marshall, to say this narrow warrant requirement, it doesn't stop law enforcement from accessing certain messages or things like that. It actually gives them the authority to do that, but it doesn't give them the keys of the castle. Right. And if you know it if we get too broad in our our warrants, we're eventually opening ourselves to corruption and bigger issues down the Road. And you're right. This argument comes back up over and over and over again, and it's the same almost illogical tone that comes up every single time for a different technology. Right. You're exactly right. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Weakening Encryption Weakens Society

SPEAKER_11 40:14

Yeah. And you know, again, I personally think the advantages we have, we being law enforcement, military, government, you know, on processing this data are so many. And we have so many corporations like Apple and others who have gone way out of their way to help train us, provide products to us, educate us, so on and so forth. And then of course, on top of all of that, we have the traditional, you know, old school social engineering stuff that usually gets us past a lot of this stuff anyway, you know, in many, many cases. You know, you write your password down, leave it under your computer. I'll use that as a 50,000-foot example, you know. But but but you you'd be surprised how much you know we can actually uh gain access to legally and technically, even if you're using encryption. So that is kind of the point of that statement was, you know, we have access to a lot and we're only going to have access to a lot more. I prefer if we continue to focus these discussions on you know improving that rather than continually spending our time arguing, you know, how to break what we've already accomplished.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

No, you're exactly right.

Narrow Warrants And Legal Scope

SPEAKER_11 41:32

I read a an article just the other day that was from uh quite some time ago, I think it might have been 2018, that was on just security.org. That's uh I posted it on the show's uh Twitter feed, but just security is the recenter out of the recenter for on law and security at New York University School of Law. And the title of that article, just uh so people know, Why an encryption backdoor for just the good guys won't work. What a great read that was. I thought, you know, last night I'm like, I gotta talk to Jasper in the morning. I want to read up on a few more things, do some more Googling, and and boom, I stumble on this article and I'm just like, oh my gosh, it is so well put in regards to who are the good guys. And, you know, there's so many positions and issues brought up in the article, but that particular topic itself is the challenge because the government is a big, convoluted, complex system. And even in the case, in my opinion, of the Symphony example, where we have an independent third-party key escrow, we are still creating liabilities and vulnerabilities that are absolutely unnecessary in 90-some percent of the cases. So so why address this very, very small percentage, you know?

Law Enforcement Access Without Backdoors

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Yeah, and and those particular cases that that you focus in on, especially the ones that that Barr talks about in his speeches, the FBI brings up as particular case examples, and even going back to the Riley case, all of those particular cases did not I wouldn't say impact a large number of people. They're usually focused very narrow in scope. And you realize a company like Apple, Android, anyone who employs any type of encryption or endpoint encryption generally trade globally. And a lot of people rely on other countries, very volatile company countries like Egypt, Syria, China, where spying on citizens is commonplace. Right. And to communicate things to the outside, whether it be a journalist, whether it be a photojournalist, a video journalist, or even a person that wants to communicate with their family to say I'm still alive, they need to have that ability to get that data out and get it to our government, to our to our our media. Those are important things. So it all it all makes a big circle.

SPEAKER_11 44:59

You just ruined it for my mom.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

She may already know that. She may already have seen these. They're good movies. You could you could throw those spoilers out and they'd still be classics.

SPEAKER_11 45:13

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I think another really interesting thing that you bring up is scope, and I apologize for the notifications on my PC that you can't hear but are probably in my recording. I think another great point that you bring up is the scope. I mean, the scope is really something where law enforcement, in my experience, you know, 30 years with military and law enforcement and government, uh, a couple years where I was out but and going to school and doing radio stuff. But essentially, you know, I I I find that scope is a big, big problem when it comes to digital evidence. Always has been. Late 90s, you know, I remember uh uh researching and just trying to find, you know, examples of search warrants for different platforms and all of that stuff and collecting all of that for our region and and getting that stuff readily available. But in regards to scope, oh my gosh, there is so much data. I mean, if you think about just taking a hard drive, right, you and I do every day out of a device to analyze it, and your scope is just messaging on a particular platform. Well, you have got terabytes of evidence there beyond your scope often, you know. And and you know, we we have more than enough to do. We're not perusing through stuff we don't need to peruse through, but oh, if we if our efforts within that scope stumble on other things, yeah, we're gonna go back and get the authority to process that. But I just think scope is such a critical part of this conversation, and the available solutions that already exist should be discussed more, and improving those mechanisms and and our work with companies rather than forcing companies to try and provide us uh easier access, which, like you said, weakens everything for all.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Yeah. No, it it goes back to a good argument as well, and and you're hearing this popping up in the digital forensics community with caution. How are we going to better our triage processes? Because it's it's almost unreasonable to set an examiner down in front of a station or a DVR or an image of a DVR or a phone and give them this mountain of evidence and say, find the relevant evidence that was relevant to this murder. Right. So you're requiring a person to to almost in analog format go through and watch these videos. You're looking at some of these triage processes growing out now to say, is AI or artificial intelligence getting good enough to do our triaging for us? Right. So as we uh, you know what we in you and I, we you know, we did video years ago, you know, and we go through and we would put a tape in and we would watch it and find the crime, you know, maybe convert that to digital and and even when it when it you know started storing on hard drives, we would still have to go through and watch that video for the relevant evidence.

SPEAKER_04 48:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Now you're looking at advanced triaging processes, and I know people get kind of skittish when I mention this, but to interrogate that evidence and classify it based upon certain characteristics. So if the person that committed the crime is wearing a light-colored jacket, AI could extract that and prep it for the examiner, so they're looking at a smaller amount of evidence. So in in a sense, that that automated triage process goes back to that argument you're talking about. It narrows the scope automatically for us.

SPEAKER_12 48:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

So, you know, this argument of AI not being used in digital forensics right now, I think is really going to help personally. This is a personal opinion. Right. Josh Brunny, not Marshall University, not the digital forensics community as a whole. But when you see down the road, I'm looking 10, 15 years, you're gonna see our backlogs improve because of it. Right. You're gonna see classification of child sex exploitation material start to get smaller and smaller because our artificial intelligence methods and tactics are getting better and better by the day.

Triage, AI, And Managing Backlogs

SPEAKER_11 49:31

Yeah, absolutely. And just so, you know, those that don't know, it's the age-old discussion of you know, even when you have short video clips, it it can be be an issue of who's gonna take the time to go through all of this, right? Who's gonna be watching all of this? And AI has been huge in that regard over the last 10 years, uh, you know, throughout its growth. But an another great point in how it actually, you know, addresses the scope issue and helps with that as well. And, you know, very detailed warrants in regards to what you're looking for and keywords and and all those things, of course, best practices should always be followed. But we've got tools out there, the general public has tools out there that that can summarize video, do uh video analytics at amazing, amazing speeds. I think what's hard for the public to understand, because everybody's been watching video, you know, their whole life, uh, pretty much these days, you know, since the 40s and 50s. And so everyone thinks they know video, and I've had federal prosecutor, you know, ask me, Larry, why I know how to play a video. Why do I need you here today? And after explaining and all of that, I'm in the dentist later that day, and I get a call from the same federal prosecutor. Can you get back down here right away? You know, video is the most computationally complex thing that a computer does, and it can be drawn to your screen in so many different ways, it's mind-boggling. And watching the same video on one computer or even one piece of software doesn't mean you're looking at exactly the same thing on another. So there are just so many variables. Now that's just video. You start dealing with mobile device evidence, network evidence, you know, dead box forensics. You've got so many opportunities, you know, these days, and so much evidence to go through that certainly it's it's not feasible in many cases to even review all of the digital evidence on every little tiny matter, right? You it's just not reasonable to even go after we just don't have the resources, in other words, to, you know, to collect everything that's out there, but we we want to. We certainly want access to it. And and I don't think, you know, making that data available easierly, more easily available to everyone by creating a backdoor of any kind resolves that in any way. I think it makes things so much worse.

Video Complexity And Forensic Realities

SPEAKER_00 52:11

Yeah. I was talking to a statistician that works here at Marshall, and one of the comments that he made, we we were having a lunchtime conversation, and a lot of his work goes into health analytics. So he's not even involved in in the field that we're involved in, but he made the statement, he said, data without an analyst is useless. If I don't have a person looking at that data or something that is analyzing that data, that's just a giant pile of whatever you want to call it. It's useless to me. Until I do some sort of analytics on that and say, okay, this is useful, this is not useful, then we don't need it. We we don't need it. And if you look at a lot of the data that law enforcement is taking, and I I go back to this, back to my prior life and say a lot of the data that we took, you know, which was the old, you know, pull the hard drive out of the box, image, you know, the the four terabyte hard drive, process it through a forensic tool, we were probably using maybe one hundredth of a percent of that data that was relevant to that crime. The other, you know, nine hundredth percents of that particular hard drive was not used. Right. And I'm thinking, okay, but I had to go through and look at all of that, you know, just to determine relevance to that crime. So, you know, when you're when you bring up this argument, okay, do we really need to take all that data? Number one. And number two, is there a more logical method for us to take it without degrading our own people's privacy and our encryption? And if we can find a way to do that and find that balance in society, I'd say we'd be a lot better off as humans if we're able to do that.

SPEAKER_11 54:03

Absolutely. And and you know, another colleague of mine had mentioned, you know, back in 2015, I had posted some a few things where I vented on LinkedIn about this topic back in 2015. And I even, for the first time in my life, wrote a letter to uh President Obama at the time, you know, about it because I I was I was just so infuriated and it just consumed me for so long, as it as it has done again this year. But you know, I I had I had you know essentially vented on there about about all of this and and I forgot my point and where I was going. There were two things I wanted to say and I forgot them both, Josh. Well, how about this? I have uh the the other thing I wanted to talk about was in regards to uh methods of collection and other uh um solutions. Are you familiar with forensic notes?

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Yes, I am.

SPEAKER_11 55:00

Do you use it?

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Not really. I have some colleagues that do, and we I've I've toyed around with it a little bit, but I've never used it in a live case environment.

SPEAKER_11 55:10

Aaron Powell Yeah. I'm just curious because I I've been keeping an eye on them and I know some some colleagues that use it, and but I'm I'm really interested to see where the solution concept on their mobile collection piece, the mobile, forensic mobile, how that proceeds essentially, how how it it goes in regards to you know getting evidence voluntarily, you know, right there from from witnesses. Rather than having to take their device, they're able to, you know, upload via the link and and and everything. And I and I just I really like that approach and it seems to be so scalable to me for the low-level incident stuff, you know.

Data Deluge: Analysis Over Collection

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Yeah, I think the the toughest part, or at least in my career that I ran into, where I really ran in, I wouldn't say trouble, but it gave me a lot of grief, is I didn't document certain things that I did properly. You know, when I when when you would just say interrogate, you know, the time difference on a DVR, and you would write that down, and then you would go back, you know, a month later to write your report, and you're like, okay, where did I write this at? Did I put it here? Did I put it here? You know, it was it was it was in this big mess of notes, right? And I would spend 15 minutes trying to organize my notes back together. Right. So I really I think that that a good organized approach to notes not only promotes transparency in cases, but it also helps the analyst be a little more efficient and pick up a little bit of time over handwritten notes or even trying to maintain a case folder with lots of different types of exports in it. So if you can streamline that process, by all means, I think it's any anytime an examiner or an analyst can pick up time in the lab and and cut into their backlog, that's a it's a good sign.

SPEAKER_11 57:10

Yeah, organization is key. And I I I'm definitely not trying to promote the product. I don't use it. I know of others who do, but I I've just been really, you know, in regards to this topic, I thought their method of collection was very interesting, and and I and I'm I'm gonna definitely be keeping an eye on it. One of the other interesting things that I wanted to mention was this week Demetrius Visakis stepped down from the White House, uh their their uh computer security chief.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Yeah, yeah. I haven't really read in much information. He has a lot to say on my reading list because it's kind of perfectly interesting. I I'd like to see that story because I'm sure it's I was I could I could have stopped myself.

SPEAKER_11 57:55

I I posted online, you know what the problem is. The problem is they need an encryption backdoor. I'm such a smart person.

SPEAKER_10 58:07

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_11 58:09

But anyways, Josh, I know you're very, very busy, and I'm gonna I'm gonna we'll let you go here. I so I just wanted to take a minute and and talk about how I'm gonna use this. Is that okay? Sure. Absolutely. Yeah, so first off, I again I can't thank you much enough. I mean, it just seems like, especially right now, because I'm doing something brand new and you know, everybody's supportive who who talks to me. But but a lot of people, you know, hold hold you at the end of the poll for a while until they see how it goes.

SPEAKER_10 58:35

Yeah. Hey, do great, do great, but that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_11 58:39

But so I really, really do appreciate it. But I'm planning to put this in. You'll be in the second episode, second week in November, along with listener, any listener feedback other than my mom. So if if we have any, we'll we'll add my own.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

My mom is my mom will listen to this.

SPEAKER_12 58:57

Great. Then we'll have two listeners.

SPEAKER_11 59:00

I'll get I'll get you in there as the featured guest, and then feature some of the listener feedback about our previous episode with Brett Shavers on the topic. And that's kind of the model I plan to do is you know, it's two episodes a month. The first one I'll you know, I'll raise the topic and talk with somebody about it, and then allow listener feedback and and provide that in the in the next episode. Oh awesome.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

I mean, it's it's a good idea. I'm really it's needed. You know, we've we don't really have a there's some stuff out there, but not at the down in the weeds kind of level with people who actually work this, I guess I should say.

SPEAKER_04 59:38

Yeah.

Practical Tools And Better Documentation

SPEAKER_00 59:39

So the respect that I carry with you of of you know, following you over the years, you know, through you know, Leva and all the other stuff, I think it means a lot to people out there to have you know a ground level podcast that they can sit down and listen to while they're working, you know, and and it it kind of voices the concerns that we all have. Down at the labs, you know, how how how's this encryption battle gonna pan out? What are these products like? You know, how do they what do these people have to say about certain topics? And you know, I know I was in a job at one point where you were afraid to talk, and I guess I'm afforded the luxury now of being in a university where I have tenure, so you know you look into the tenure and that's you know, I you know, drop the F-bomb, you know, a hundred times here, and you know that's that's the the purpose of having the tenure. So to be able to vocally speak about these subjects and and put them out there for the world and you know, not have to worry about the repercussions of what I say, uh that's that's important.

Community, Training, And Speaking Freely

SPEAKER_11 1:00:43

Well I really appreciate hearing that because I and certainly the kind words and it and you know it's reciprocated. I I I've thought the world of you since since you know I stumbled on you and your research, you know, back at I i it it must have been part of you know a computer tool testing program, right? Oh, awesome. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you just really, really have respected you for a long time, the way you've gone about what you're doing, and and those are the types of people I want to talk to. And I and I don't want to talk to them about, you know, hey, let's talk about this very specific process. I want to to give them a voice. I want to give them a way to talk. Because I'm at that place now. I'm at a place where I right now I have one full-time job. I've never had just one job. You know what I mean? And so I'm like, well, I I could actually, as long as I can still pay my bills, I could actually have a hobby now and do something that I enjoy. And, you know, I'm not financially set for life by any means. Uh I'm not set for next month, but I am set for life in regards to, you know, who I am and and what I want to do. And that's how, you know, people talk, communicate. And our audience, our group, just doesn't have enough ways of doing that securely. That that's always been my position. And I and then the other side of it is the you know, law enforcement private sector thing and how exclusive some training is to law enforcement, and I get it and support it and have you know leveraged it myself. But but also what does that do to the private sector? What does that do, you know, to you know, our defense strategies and and people who are wrongfully accused and so on and so forth. So I'm hoping that I'll get anonymous guest. I'll get more people that are willing to share their opinions, not necessarily their names and jobs, because I know a lot of them can't. Um, but I'm hoping to chat a lot more with folks like you and and pick your brains when I can. So I I just really, really appreciate the time and I hope to have you back on uh in the future.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:51

Oh, anytime. Anytime. This is this is great stuff. So to throw it out there. And uh it's a good teaching tool for me because it it throws out past experiences and you know, this is gonna get shared out to every class when it drops. So we have forced we have forced listeners here.

SPEAKER_12 1:03:11

Oh, you're the best. I will now I've got to include some of this part of it, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:16

There's there we you know, we have a really good group of students. They're gonna go out and you know, be the next generation of analysts and examiners and work on phones and figure out how to uh decode a lot of these DVRs that are giving us grief now.

SPEAKER_11 1:03:31

Right. So And that's what's so exciting. It's kind of reinvigorated me as as I've grown through and gotten to this point in life where I can you know still be helpful to a great many, but have a little bit of time for myself that I can use as relaxation and enjoyment and oh, by the way, still help more, you know, that that that's really cool. But my my renewed, I think, hope is, you know, I I don't do much on online Twitter, social media, Twitter, or that sort of stuff. I haven't in the past. The last few years I've I've started picking it up in regards to dissemination, you know. And this show in and of itself, you know, that I created a Twitter account and and started following a few uh key people and stumbled on this 23-year-old young girl who who went through free training, taught herself to code, you know, in a hundred days, and promotes free training for all of this, and you know, went from a fast food job to you know InfoSec uh career in six months and is just killing it.

SPEAKER_09 1:04:33

You know.

unknown 1:04:34

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_11 1:04:35

I think it's exactly I I just think that is it that uh suddenly just gave me this holy, there's so much hope. It's not all doom and gloom, you know. There are people out there just clamoring to have this, you know, information and do great things for for you know everybody. So I I thank you for what you do in you know inspiring that in others because it is so very, very important. And at the level you do it, uh that's that's very, very admirable. So thank you very much.

Show Format And Upcoming Topics

SPEAKER_00 1:05:08

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. That's very kind words. And uh I always I I guess I'm at a point in my career, and you know, you you probably feel the same where you want to be an ambassador of everything that you've learned and kind of give back to a community honestly that has been very, very good to me. Yeah. People that have stepped up. I can go through and just name instructors that that have inspired me that that now follow me and I follow them and provide feedback to them, you know, folks like you, you know. I mean, I was a very young guy, you know, going through Libra when I was in law enforcement. And I don't know if you realize this or not, but you were one of my LIBA instructors years ago. You were you were uh it was uh it was a level one.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:56

So wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:58

Yeah, totally in a head.

SPEAKER_11 1:06:02

Well, Josh, thank you so much for the time. I gotta I gotta run, and I'm sure you do. I I I really hope you'll come back on sometime with us, okay?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

Oh yeah, absolutely. And this will and and this will be in the second episode, but absolutely yeah, if there's anything we can do to to help with your anything, you know, just give me a shout.

unknown 1:06:22

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:23

You know, doors always open. I really appreciate it, my friend.

Patreon, Feedback, And How To Engage

Comedy Break: Appmaster 400XL

Music Man Mark: Calls, Bits, And Banter

SPEAKER_11 1:06:26

You have a great day. You do. All right. Take care now. Take care of now. Bye bye. Josh Brunty talking about the encryption backdoor debate of 2019 with me, and thank you so much, Josh. Obviously, that didn't make it into the second episode as I had hoped, but here it is in the complete episode three, and I'm looking forward to having Josh on again in the future. If you have an opinion, you have something to say about the encryption backdoor debate of 2019, we'd love to hear it. In fact, we'll put it in the podcast. Give us a call, 541-314-4271. Drop your thoughts there, or you know, you could comment on our Patreon site. Speaking of Patreon, so I think there's some mass confusion out there. Those not familiar with the platform, Patreon is a social media platform for independent creators. And did that pop loud enough? I could probably make that a little worse for you if you'd like. But essentially, Patreon is about independent creators and helping creators share their product, service, art, whatever, and with their audience and do it in a way that they could also uh be compensated if they'd like and have uh tools to communicate with said audience. So essentially, as you know, and I mentioned in my discussion there with Josh, I have abandoned Twitter and Facebook and both my pages as well as my personal accounts on both of those platforms. I am still on LinkedIn and of course my own websites, but for this show, there is one site, and that's our Buzz Sprout hosting site, which nerdsandnonsense.com redirects to our BuzzSprout podcast hosting site. It's a real simple page with just our audio feeds there, so that you can grab the public releases of our episodes and uh things of that nature. Patrons are simply people oh, that was awesome. That's high quality. Patrons are simply people who have decided to donate to our show. That's it. Visitors, listeners can comment on our posts on Patreon uh Patreon just like they can on Twitter or Facebook. Um in fact, you can comment on those posts, those public posts, with your Google or Facebook accounts if you'd like. That's entirely up to you, and we we hope that you'll consider doing that. Uh just don't be an ass or an idiot. Uh but but outside of that, we encourage it and we definitely want to hear from you. This entire show is going to be about sharing information. And this segment, the what's your opinion segment, is a really big part of that. So I hope you'll uh you know give us your thoughts if you have any on the encryption backdoor debate of 2019. Our next topic coming up for the next couple episodes is going to be a documentary movie on Netflix, a movie called The Great Hack. So if you have not seen that documentary called The Great Hack, it's on Netflix, and it is about the Cambridge Analytica situation back in 2015, started really in 2014 for them, and uh all of that business. Essentially, the Great Hack, consumerism, you know, all of these technologies that I know and love and how they're impacting our society on our day-to-day life, and some things that you know you should be aware of and consider. So I hope you'll check out that movie. If you haven't seen that documentary, it is worth worth uh the time, in my opinion. So the next episode we'll have some guests on chatting a little bit more about that. I chatted a little bit with it about it with my son in a in the episode two that uh didn't get finished. Um so you you've got a little bit there if you want to hear any of that, and certainly I'll be chatting uh with some some other guests uh on that topic. So join us and give us your opinions. Up next, I am going to chat with a guy that just makes me laugh. Period. Makes me laugh and can't have an episode without him. So more from Music Man Mark up next. Do you breathe? Have you ever taken a shit before? If you answered yes to either of those questions, we've got a product for you. Introducing the Appmaster 400XL. The Fmaster 400XL is a comfy heated toilet seat with a built-in air purifier. No more rotten carcass smell right after dad drops the morning dudes in the bathroom right off the kit. I know what you're thinking. But the Assmaster 400XL has been tested thoroughly by some of the nastiest apps in the business. The Aspaster 400XL comes in your choice of three different colors. And it has over three dozen different frames for expressed aromas built right in. If you call within the next 20 minutes, we'll include the required power core. And you get to keep the cardboard box we ship it to you in. Don't kid yourself. Your shit really does stink. Get an Askmaster 400XL today!

SPEAKER_06 1:11:45

The Askmaster 400XL is not a real product, and this is not a real commercial. Your shit definitely does stink.

SPEAKER_12 1:11:55

Hey, hey, you're driving again. I'm almost home. I'm on the hands-free device.

SPEAKER_11 1:12:02

Ah it will. I like hands-free devices. It keeps my hands keeps my hands free for doing other things, you see.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:12:19

I hate calling people when they're driving, man. I hate it. I just there's something about it that drives me nuts, and I just want to get off the phone right away. And um, even when it's hands-free, because I've you know ridden with other people, and and I'm like, what the hell are you doing? Yes, you're you're freaking crazy talented and capable of doing so much, and you're so smart, and all these things, but you could die you know any second now, uh, or kill someone else. And it's fucking crazy to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:56

I don't think I can get in the way of my phone talking, man. I'm I'm good. Our conversation is getting solid, you know, driving in the interview with it.

SPEAKER_11 1:13:06

Driving.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

Secondary.

SPEAKER_11 1:13:07

Secondary. Yes. I got you. Definitely got that speaker phone wobble going on, which is always nice, you know. It brings back memories of the old school analog days for me. Like back when.

SPEAKER_12 1:13:28

Like real low bandwidth. Yeah, really low bandwidth simplex stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_11 1:13:40

It just sounded horrible. Hey, I saw, you know what I saw the other day? Just see I saw an ad for Neil Young's, you know, Amazon Prime Music HD stuff. Uh, and I hadn't seen that in a while. Have you checked that out at all or heard anything about it?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:55

No, I haven't been on Amazon in like um ever. Ever? I hope I get there someday.

SPEAKER_12 1:14:08

I think it's right down by the uh stopping rob, right, right down the street there.

SPEAKER_11 1:14:13

Has a little swoosh sign. Kind of looks like you know, they were you know thinking Nike or something like that, like swoosh. But anyway, yeah, I I unfortunately Amazon knows way too much about me. And in fact, they just delivered a bed for my mom's visit yesterday. Or today we what we no, they delivered the bed yesterday. I got other stuff today. I don't know. Oh, it sounds like they like you. I know that I think they do like me. They treat me well, which is what I like about them. I've never had an issue with Amazon. I can't think of one single issue with working with them or purchasing from them. Uh it's better than that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:54

I was gonna say I never have either, so now I cannot say that.

SPEAKER_11 1:15:02

Did I tell you about the light bulb situation? The emergency LED light bulbs, the one that have the batteries built into them, you know. So, like if you have a power outage, they last for you know two, three hours, you know, without power. They sense the power outage. And did I tell you about all that?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:20

No.

Trust, Purchasing Misadventures, And Tech

SPEAKER_11 1:15:22

Oh man. So I never ever do this. I never do this. I was on Facebook and saw an ad for these LED light bulbs with the batteries built in. And like an idiot. No, I take that back. I've done this twice before. I've done this twice before, and I was burned both times. And I I thought I was burned this time too. I thought I was burned this time. Um, so I see this ad for these LED light bulbs, and I'm like, oh man, that's so cool. I'm just sitting smoking a cigar in one evening, and I'm like, oh, that's so cool, you know, and I've had this whole power backup thing on my mind for so long, you know, since we bought our first house, I wanted to go natural gas power backup, you know. I've looked at Tesla's solar roof since the day it came out, keep pricing it to try and make sense, and it's still, even with the discounts and everything else, it's still, you know, cost effective for us. So, anyways, I've explored a lot of options. And and when I saw this, I was like, oh my gosh, a little interim thing, you know. And uh it'd definitely be helpful. And so I just went ahead and clicked on it and I ended up ordering eight of them, right? So I order eight, and then of course, before you check out, they're like, you know, well, hey, if you get eight more, you know, we'll we'll cut you a discount. And I'm like, no, thanks. And then the next page, you know, thing is, well, oh wait, not yet. Don't go yet. We'll give you six more for this. And I'm like, all right, yeah, that'd give me enough to do upstairs, downstairs. You know, I'd have a few spares. We could, you know, even ration them, keep them charged, only use, you know, one or two, you know, as needed type of thing. I don't know. But anyways, I'm like, okay, cool. I bought in. I added the six more and you know, went and I paid through PayPal, and I'm a happy camper because I don't ever give my credit card, you know, to online merchants. I try not to ever have to do that. But in any case, I'm happy. I got the purchase transaction receipt from PayPal, but nothing from the company, right? Nothing from them about the order. So just the PayPal receipt that I processed a payment for this amount to this company. That struck me as odd. I'm like, okay, sometimes a couple hours, you know, no problem. You know, sometimes might be a couple hours, emails, you know, out in the ether or something, or whatever, servers, what so many things, right? Nothing. I don't I don't get anything until that, you know, later that night or the next morning. I can't remember the details, but from them saying, hey, thanks for your order. It doesn't have my order details in it. It doesn't tell me what I ordered or anything. It just says, hey, listen, we really appreciate the order, and we're processing it. In the meantime, how would you like to buy some more stuff for a discounted price? And I'm like, nah, you know, so I just disregard it and wait. And the next day I get another email. I think two emails the next day and two or three the next day. And then finally on the fourth day, I send an email in response to them saying, Could you please just provide me my shipping information? I don't want to buy any more stuff. Just tell me when my product is shipped. Didn't hear from them all day, you know, for hours all day. Later that night I get a I get a response. We're sorry, we're a small company, uh, we will be shipping your product soon. Okay, I'm thinking, fine, I'm I'm fine with that. Then I get an email shortly thereafter, something else, right? And I said, listen, I'm not feeling comfortable at this point. You know what? Let's just cancel the order. I don't want these anymore. I want to cancel my order. Nothing back from them after that one until I get an email about the product shipping. Now, I had told them in the previous two emails I was going to report them to PayPal and you know, to uh dispute this transaction. I just wanted to cancel the whole order and no response. And then I get the shipping notice, and the shipping email has a link to some address. Like you don't, I, you know, even you know, if I go over the hyperlink and see the actual address, I can see it's nothing that I know, nothing I'm familiar with, not FedEx, it's not you know, DHS or what you know, it's like it's it's so it's definitely an obfuscated thing, and I'm like, I'm not clicking that link. I'm not clicking that damn link, you know? So I said to I I sent, you know, a dispute to PayPal saying, listen, I I just want to cancel this transaction. They've been unresponsive, then sent me this link that I don't want to click on. And so uh PayPal says, well, they got ten days to to you know dispute it. So ten days go by and they never respond to PayPal. And so PayPal notifies me, hey, here's your here's your money back. You know, they never responded, so we've uh uh judged in your favor and are crediting your account. I'm like, great, cool, thanks. That's awesome. This is all behind me. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_12 1:20:38

And then guess what shows up that night? Or the next day, the next day.

SPEAKER_11 1:20:42

You ordered the 12 of the 14 light bulbs that they were they so I I ordered 14 and and then uh so 12 of them show up after I got you know the notice from PayPal that I'd been credited back and everything. And I'm like, get out, and so I I I I didn't even want to open them. But then I I waited a little while at the end of work, at the end of the day, I'm like, all right, I'm gonna open them and just check them out. So I opened one box, one of the box, each box has four in it, and just checked it out and saw that there's four bulbs in there. And I'm like, okay, so yeah, four, that's 12. They sent me 12 bulbs, I ordered 14. So so I emailed the company and I said, Hey, here's I emailed them a copy of the PayPal notice that I had been credited back, right? And said, Hey, here's here's uh I've already been credited back, and you still shipped me items. You shipped me 12 bulbs, although I ordered four. Right. So, so I mean, I'm happy to send these back or pay for them. No response. So that night, um later that night, I'm talking with Stacey and Ryan about it and explaining the whole deal, and I'm like, you know, to hell with it. I want to really check one of those bulbs out. Let's check one out, you know. And so we went and got one out and checked it out. And I'm like, oh, I'm not I'm not sending these back now. I definitely want to pay for these. I'm not sending these back.

SPEAKER_12 1:22:08

These are cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:09

Well they pay for them, they're they're paid for.

SPEAKER_12 1:22:11

Yeah, well, no, because they credited me back my money. So I I sent another uh thing, you know, to the company, say, hey, I have not paid for these bulbs you sent me.

SPEAKER_11 1:22:24

And no response. And so then today, two more show up, the final two of my total 14, and that I originally ordered. And so I sent them another email saying, Hey, I have 14-year bulbs I'd be happy to pay for. Please advise.

unknown 1:22:42

That was my idea.

Friendship, Army Stories, And Humor

SPEAKER_11 1:22:46

Oh man, it's never dull for me. Ever. Ever. It's just so I love those bulbs though. They're super cool. They essentially come on if they notice a power. You can't use them in like dimmer switches and stuff, you know, like that. Um but and they're big, they're bigger than a normal LED LED bulb. You know, years ago we had switched from the old, you know, what are those the ones, you know, I can't think of the word. But the curly Q looking bulbs, you know, and then the newer LED bulbs came out and and then they came finally came out with the you know more blue light LED that's actually more natural. And so that's what we yeah, that's what we did the whole house in, you know, and and we're like, ah, everything. And saving you know on electricity and better light and but you know, win-win all around. But these things are bigger, they're a bit bigger, so they don't fit in small light fixtures because the bulb's a bit bigger around, but I mean they fit in normal size, you know, uh fixtures, but but like I have ceiling, glass ceiling things in the hallways that are you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:55

Pretty set up in those, yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:23:56

Yeah, it's just too small, you know. So but that that's silly. I don't need them in all those little places I, you know, for for a a power outage that hopefully uh doesn't last too long. Um I just need a few key locations, you know, so that we can see on how to get to generator and cord and all that.

SPEAKER_12 1:24:18

Yeah, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_11 1:24:20

So anyway, that was an interesting story. And I'm headed out to see my mom. So just got off the phone with her. Are you still there?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:31

Yeah, man. Oh taking a big old fat bonnet. Thought I lost you.

SPEAKER_12 1:24:37

Most people don't hang in there that long, man. Good for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:40

I'm a good friend.

SPEAKER_12 1:24:41

I'm in there. You're just you're something else. Most people won't hang in there.

SPEAKER_11 1:24:47

They'll just, you know, they zone out like Stacey. She gives me about you know, 30 seconds, she'll give me to make up her mind, you know, whether she's gonna actually listen or she's just gonna look at me and and you know, look at me lovingly like she's listening.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:04

Yes, I've been doing that before. I know those people.

SPEAKER_12 1:25:07

Yeah, I love her for it though, because bless her heart for letting me, you know, vent and get that stuff out.

SPEAKER_10 1:25:14

It's it's awesome.

SPEAKER_11 1:25:16

But more often than not, she does, you know, lately, especially it seems the last few years as we get older, you know, she does we we're so much in sync.

SPEAKER_12 1:25:25

We think at things at the same time, say things at the same time, you know, all that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:31

I do that with my yes, some of my friends, guys I worked with.

SPEAKER_12 1:25:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:37

He'd I'd be thinking, Man, I wish he'd fucking go to lunch. And then five seconds later, hey man, you ready to eat lunch? Yeah. You can't hear me screaming it in my mind at you.

SPEAKER_12 1:25:49

It's the power of positive thinking. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:53

Yeah, it's it's got it's the law of attraction. Not like physical attraction, it's uh it's just how uh it's the law of attraction.

SPEAKER_11 1:26:02

Well, I'm telling you, there are people, and you're one of them. And that's why, I mean, like we connected right away. I not only because I knew your heart right away, but but you are one of those people, and I've met three, I think I can think off the top of my head in my life, where when you enter a room or a group or a conversation, whether you want to or not, go go away, Ring. I'm I'm talking. Whether you want to or not, right, you elevate the the mood changes, the character changes of that room, of that environment when you enter. Sometimes, you know, people have that from a position of authority, sometimes from a position of, you know, wealth or power or whatever, you know, but or sometimes, you know, an artist from position of a being in a band or uh being famous for something. But people that do that with none of that, right? With you know, just the shirt off their back and can can literally change the whole group, the whole room, affect the whole ambiance just by their presence, whether they're saying anything or not. I know this guy, uh Roland, and I I knew, I know him, I just haven't talked to him in a long time, but in San Francisco, he's the same sort of person. He can it just being in the room, in the environment, creates an atmosphere that brings wallth down and people relax, you know? And that's such an awesome skill to have, man, because that's one of the things I've always been envious of, right? All a lot of my mistakes are from like people see me, see me from a position of like I'm being egotistical or arrogant. Like I'll never forget when Stacy's mom uh said, you know, early, you know, into our relationship, I had told Stacy, man, he's arrogant, you know, what an arrogant prick. You know. Interesting. Because I didn't say anything, because I didn't talk because I was shy, because I'm quiet. And so it was the first it's the first time I realized what people uh you know, people could totally see me like uh in a way that was completely freaking, you know, opposite of who I feel I am. I mean, there'd been a lot of times where I'd seen some, you know, but but that completely uh, you know, opposite. And so I'm like, that's just crazy to me. You know, I've just never had that level of comfort. It's just my anxiety just doesn't allow it. Like you just immediately make me relax. I'm just comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:48

Well, buddy, it wasn't always that way. It was the army that changed me. You didn't know me before then, man. You were that way from day one in the army. You were you were that I was a target for bullying. I was uh very quiet, very introvert, very unconfident, dude. Yes, I didn't feel like you'd be in a fucking society. Yeah, very fucking easy. I'm like, how do I get on the loser side of things so quick? I try to play football, right? And this is no good at it all. So you just become a target for heckling, right? I'm off just beef drop and shit. The only draft teams in my uniform is because I'm fucking around the sidelines. I ain't even position. You took basketball? Motherfucker, forget that. I became fucked, man, the coach, he was such an asshole. He fucking bullied the shit out of me, and everybody followed the suit. I mean, they used to do crazy shit, you know, like bust my butt up against the wall, and that kind of shit, like in the 70s. So I said, fuck this shit. Try to be a little guy. I'm gonna join wrestling and learn how to do a suplex off the top rope.

SPEAKER_12 1:30:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:09

And you get in there and you're like, what? This ain't wrestling. You know, he's like, you're allowed to be like, you're like, what? And then I was little and I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. No matter when I was in the jump time or I'm the one doing the fucking, I still was the one on the bottom getting fucked. And I'm just like, yeah, I gotta quit this shit. And I tried all the sports, you know, baseball, oh my god, baseball, that was a torture to me. So I finally just quit, man. Got so tired of running to the fence. That's all I did. I just run to the goddamn fence. I was just going, and they're just laughing. The coach is like, get up, man!

SPEAKER_10 1:31:12

Kids struggling.

SPEAKER_09 1:31:14

Kids struggling to breathe, and they're fucking laughing and pointing and yelling.

Purpose, Gratitude, And Creative Mission

SPEAKER_02 1:31:19

Yeah. That's not gonna happen to this, Mark. That's yeah, the army changed my whole fucking everything. That's so interesting. I mean, like from basic training and AIT, I met some fucking good NCOs that were not just army. They're guys that had, man, they were fucking smart and they offered advice, and I learned a lot from those guys how to behave and shit like that. And uh yeah, they really are and plus when I got caught with weed in school and shit. My parents sent me to counseling.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:48

And I didn't need counseling, so all I did was get an education from those people instead of counseling. Right. They taught me a lot.

SPEAKER_11 1:31:55

Right, right. Well, that's really what counseling is. It's you teaching yourself and them helping you teach yourself. Yeah. But that's so fascinating to me because I've always I mean, I knew from you know, when when I met you, day one, you were this way. And so I knew you were, you know, bullied younger, and you know, we talked about some of that stuff, of course, but I didn't realize it was such a a change for you, uh, you know, personality-wise. Because for me, I was again in high school, I was quiet. I worked, you know. But I uh, you know, some people might not think that that I was quiet or that I, you know, whatever. Everybody has your opinion, yeah, yeah. And you know, good for them. But listen, I I am just so damn excited about this show. I have some serious decisions to make tonight because I've got to get ready to travel and I've got so much shit to get in this show. I mean, I've already told listeners or the the listener, maybe, I'm not sure. But that that I was gonna have certain things in the next show, and you know, as usual, I want to live up to those expectations, so I've got to get that in, but I've got other things that I absolutely am going to get in. And so the next episode might end up being a a bit of a long one, but that's all right. What you know what? Right? That's all right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:22

People don't want to go to the whole desert, they can just pull out and that's right.

SPEAKER_12 1:33:26

That's right. What a classy way to put it.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:35

Oh, and I gotta say, your impression of a T38 is spot on, man. Although no one got it. I got it.

SPEAKER_10 1:33:44

But uh Hey, you remember, do you remember sitting around in we would we would do that and have the LTs, the new LTs, you know, like looking all over the EOC trying to figure out which phone was ringing?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:57

Yeah. What is it? Oh, I think that one major he kept falling asleep when I was doing that. And he was getting pissed. He's like, Hello!

SPEAKER_11 1:34:09

Right. Oh, that's his name. That's the guy I was trying to remember. That's the guy. Wasn't it Numbers in the desert with Colonel Kellogg when right before he got promoted? Wasn't it numbers? Had just numbers. He just got in country, right? Yep. He had just got in country, and he was when we we're sitting in the back of the rig, and uh, you know, Colonel Kellogg shows up on an unannounced site visit, and here's our br our brand new Cherry LT, you know, in country, you know, some serious responsibilities, and he's got this Fullbird colonel coming on for a surprise, surprise visit of his site, and getting that bird full bird's getting ready to be promoted to brigadier general. And oh man, so Mark and I are in the back of the rig in the middle of the desert, and and the we all of a sudden, you know, Mark's, of course, out of uniform, you know, boots untied and everything. Comfortable, you know, he's comfortable, which you know is always great for me because I was his sergeant, and you know, it really reflected well on me.

SPEAKER_10 1:35:17

But people knew. But the people the thing was, people knew. People knew you can't tell, you can't tell him. Nobody expects expects you to control him. It's like Shaw, remember Shaw? Nobody expects you to control that guy.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:31

I grew on that. I know.

SPEAKER_11 1:35:33

But anyways, so we're sitting in there and sitting down in the back of our rig, and and and you know, just so you know, if you're in if you're in your equipment uh and and you know, a general somebody comes along and they yell attention, group tangent, and you're working, you don't have to be, you know, you're in your rig. You don't have to get out of your rig and stand up at attention, of course. So uh Mark and I are just sitting there and we lean our heads kind of peering out the the back door of the rig on the Humvee, and and here is our Terry Lieutenant locked up and you know, d just standing uh at attention, locked up in literally. I think of you know, my vision these days, uh memory of it these days, is like him shaking, you know, like red in the face.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:21

The mouth is wide open right now. You look like a trout.

SPEAKER_10 1:36:26

But he was very nervous and rightfully so. And you know, and here we are just kind of peering out the back like a couple of yahoos, you know, and this is what we are.

SPEAKER_11 1:36:38

It is what we are, and so so Colonel Kellogg, you know, we're like, what's this all about? Why is the LT so freaking, you know, freaked out? And all of a sudden, Colonel Kellogg walks around behind him and comes into our view. And the first thing out of your mouth, do you remember? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:58

Yes, yes, the first thing out of his mouth is, oh my god! But how are you with King Vitamin? Oh my god, oh my god, Colonel Kellogg.

SPEAKER_10 1:37:12

I've been dying to meet you. I'm so glad you outranked that Captain Crunch here. But tell me, how do you rate with King Vitamin? I lost it. I lost it and the LT's face turned so freaking red like anger, fear, and he just shook his head, looked down, turned and walked away.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:36

That is a gross lack of military hearing. Grossly.

SPEAKER_10 1:37:43

Oh my god, I'm so glad you outranked that Captain Crunch character. Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:37:53

Oh man, you kill me. That's why we're doing this, man. This is what I need. I need to chat with you more often and laugh and you know, see my mom and talk to my mom more often and laugh with her more often. And I appreciate that very, very much. So if I don't tell you enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:14

No, you do, man. We're tight.

SPEAKER_11 1:38:16

Good.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:17

You owe me nothing. Got feed off of you, man. It's a two-way street. I know we've lived we've lived he keeps the flow going because you're receptive. My grandson's that way too. Man, I can take him to town. Oh, we are so fucking funny because he flows off of it. He knows what we're doing, and he picks up on it.

SPEAKER_12 1:38:37

He's never left hanging. I know he's so adorable, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:41

He is smart. He's only eight right now, and he is in the talented and gifted class. He told me.

SPEAKER_12 1:38:45

I bet he is. I bet he is.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:47

He's a genius, man.

SPEAKER_11 1:38:49

I love that. I love seeing that. I saw so much great stuff today online, just like I saw. I mean, it's so crazy. It's like when you're looking positive, you see the positive, right? When you're only looking for the negative, you only see the negative, right? But I I mean, I saw this post about this Mexican, first generation Mexican immigrant just got accepted to medal school school. I'm like, holy shit, that's awesome. You know, and then something else like that, you know, it's something else. And it just snowballs, and then you next thing you know, I'm in a really good mood for, you know, just because I see other people, you know, doing great things and realizing that they are great and can be great, and it and it's really empowering. I think I isolated myself a little too much in this transition process, and I'm I'm ready to ready to open like Bill Murray says in Scrooged, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:42

I'm ready, I'm ready. Finally ready, it's finally nine.

SPEAKER_10 1:39:51

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:53

Glenn gets to smell that quell set in me. I never could be myself because Glenna did not want me to share the You never liked me hanging out with nice people.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:15

Like my band and their family. They were real cool people and she never liked going over there.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:20

She just likes being around half old. It's just really weird, man.

SPEAKER_11 1:40:23

Right. Well, it's like it's like, you know, part of it is like that whole uh Chris Christofferson story from the first episode. You know, his mom tells him, you know, hey, we're disowning you, man. Now here's a guy who's so accomplished in the military. He could do anything. I mean, he went through Ranger Scroll, got it, got his tab, you know, Ranger tab. He's a helicopter pilot captain. He's, you know, he's uh his dad's a you know two-star in the Air Force, and you know, he he decides, I'm gonna go to Nashville and try and start at the bottom. And does. And not only does he start at the bottom, he goes from the bottom, the very, very bottom, all the way to the very, very top again, right? And well that that's cool. That's amazing. That's two careers right there where you just went from the very, very bottom to the very, very top and did everything your way. And that's pretty impressive, right? You know? And then so what does he do? Does does some more stuff, does other things, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:21

He jumps off the top and goes back again.

SPEAKER_11 1:41:23

He just exactly. He's you know, and that's what I'll never forget working at Broome County, where I I was a very it was uh such a so many smart people around me, and I had so much great guidance from so many of them, like Harry Miller and Carl Fennessey and Jim Thompson and folks like that, uh Jim D'Dameo. I wish I could name them all Kate uh Newcomb and Jeff. I mean, just so many damn people. But but people who were grounded people, right? They didn't judge you based on what you brought to the table. They, you know, they treated people fairly and they parted their wisdom like, you know, they were throwing it out there, right? They're just like, you want it? Here. You know? And I love people like that. Sponges themselves and yet just disseminators, right? They don't want to hoard information. They're not trying to create secret sauces, they're trying to share information and love. And those people are the people that made me, right? My mom. Starting with my mom, right? And then well, my family, my cousins, all my there's so many people that have helped me touch so many other people in a legal way. I didn't I didn't touch them illegally. So it's pretty fascinating to me at this stage of my life, you know, to look back and be like, man, we've touched so many people's lives together, like all of us, you know. I couldn't have done it. Like I tell, you know, I used to tell Stacy all the time, and I still do because she's still like, you know, but I'm like, listen, I there I couldn't do any, I would not be me, I cannot be me without you. I would have never been here, I wouldn't have done this, I couldn't how would I have done X, you know, if this didn't, uh so on and so forth. So it's so true, it's so true about every single one of us that it fascinates me. And that's why I love stories like Christopher Stopperson's. I I love watching, you know, those sorts of things, even about to, you know, topics or genres that I don't necessarily, you know, I'm not a country music fan. I love some country songs.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:31

You've always learned some. That's why I like to learn things if you ask questions and have them explain whatever they're doing to me. Exactly. Just come away with the knowledge, basically.

SPEAKER_11 1:43:40

Exactly. And that and you know, in and in the military, one of the well, even before the military, really at chefs, I was working at my first above-the-table, you know, job other than farms, essentially. I was working full-time in high school at a diner. And that family and the the owner of that company, Tony, had you know, called to give my interview my brother. Actually, no, Johnny called Tony's son, who managed uh the place, but had called uh my brother had put in an application, or my mom put one in for him, I think. I'm not sure. And they called the house and he wasn't around, you know. And my mom's like, well, I got another son, he's 15, he's got a work permit, uh, you know. And uh volunteering me up, you know. And uh so um, yeah, so next thing you know, I'm working at 15. I I started with the work permit, and uh, because they didn't hire high school kids. Uh they had one high school kid that had worked there prior to that, Carol. And what an amazing employee she was. Like an amazing employee, like totally dedicated, initiative, you know, quiet, not me, me, me person that gets shit done. And you know, she set the bar, and so so uh when I was the next, I was the second, you know, high school kid that they brought in, and I'm just like, you know, oh man, I gotta live up to that. Holy crap, this chick is running this place. And so I started, of course, d washing dishes. And and uh I'm jobing, yeah, you know, uh so I'm back there washing dishes and and I'd get you know all ahead of myself and have everything done, and so I'd start cleaning, you know, I'd start cleaning under the dishwasher rack and all of the stuff and cleaning the walls and stuff. And you know, Tony, now this is the guy that started the place in what 46 in the you know, in the 40s, right after the war, coming back, and so he he started the place back then. He's there, you know, every morning at like 4 a.m. and you know, doesn't leave until like you know after the dinner rush type of thing, and just lives in the place, you know, literally working and and non-stop. And now, you know, family business. Now Johnny's comes back from he was a teacher and you know, very smart, smart family and and great people. But you know, so Johnny brings me, you know, brings me in, and Tony sees me in there in the kitchen working one day, you know, cleaning stuff and just kind of starts taking me under his wing and and uh you know, showing me stuff, you know, when we had time. Hey, check out the cooler, you can do this, you can clean in here, you can do this, you know, that sort of thing. And I I literally fell in love with that job because of that attention, because of, you know, that work ethic, because of uh Tony and Johnny, and they were huge, huge influences on me, you know. And I forgot why I started that story now. I can't even remember why I was talking about that now. What the heck?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:44

Well, sounds good.

SPEAKER_11 1:46:46

But you know, that that's my point, my I guess my point being that, you know, there's so many people that make us who we are, and rarely do we get an opportunity to actually tell them thank you. You know what I mean? And so that's why that's why I wrote that section in my will, and that's why I feel I'm in a position where I can do a lot of good doing this show. Whether only my family and friends listen, that that's fine with me. That is like that'd be awesome for me. I would love it. I don't need unknowns, I don't need followers, I've had fans, I've been famous, I'm not interested in any of that. You know what I mean? And and I'm I'm not trying to fight it, you know. If it comes again, I know how to handle it. I've dealt with it several times in my life. And, you know, not so well some of those times. And I'll be honest with you. So I'm ready. I know if that came to me, I could handle it. I don't want it. I'm I'm I don't want to deal with that, and I will fight it.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:51

So I like having a buffer. That's why I like you the buffer between all the people in the past that are trying to find me when they found out I'm doing shit with you. You're the gateway man, and you're doing good.

SPEAKER_11 1:48:04

I I'm I'm trying to be, you know, I it it breaks my heart, but I I you know, I it's like catching you is like, you know, uh a Yeti, right? It's like tracking you down, getting you was was I mean, you tracked me down, right? After what, 10 years? Ten years.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:23

Yeah, once we got the interweb, man.

SPEAKER_11 1:48:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:26

And as soon as we got it, the first thing we tried to do, Glenna did.

SPEAKER_11 1:48:29

Yeah, and then Bronck.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:32

Like, no shit.

SPEAKER_11 1:48:35

He's all over this damn interweb thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:39

Hell yeah, I'm like, sign me up. I want an email address now.

SPEAKER_12 1:48:43

He's the guy that had to go looking to see if he might possibly have a copy of the very first internet web page ever. And you know, when they were looking for it the about a few years ago, I'm like, I might he's that guy.

SPEAKER_11 1:49:00

Oh man, that's funny. Uh well, listen, I think I'm gonna probably just include this whole damn thing, which is now going close to 40 minutes. I have uh like three other interviews that are like, you know, pretty much somewhere in that length as well. So this is gonna be one like marathon episode, but you know, fortunately, there's chapter markers, bitches. If you're listening on, you know, our Buzz Sprouts uh, you can just click through to the topics of interest and skip the nonsense, you know. All right. Well, Mark, dude, I gotta run. I've got like hours of stuff to do tonight, and then I've got oh, tomorrow I gotta teach and uh pack and all that kind of stuff, man. So what are you up to this weekend?

SPEAKER_02 1:49:49

Me? Oh shit, I'm booked, boy.

SPEAKER_12 1:49:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:52

Nothing. Nothing.

SPEAKER_12 1:49:54

That's my kind of book in there. That's my kind of book. That's my kind of book.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:00

Blank pages on my schedule.

SPEAKER_12 1:50:01

Awesome.

SPEAKER_11 1:50:02

Well, definitely uh break out that mixer and see if you can start uh laying some tracks down on that uh USB drive. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 1:50:11

Yeah, yeah, I'm actually getting all those things set up. Nice.

SPEAKER_11 1:50:16

Yeah. I'll yeah, well, that's the dude, that is 90% of the battle rate there. If people walk in and go, dang, that looks cool. You don't even have to know how to use it. Listen, I'll be down there soon enough. I'm hoping I can get down there in December and and we can get that, you know. You know, I can spend some time showing you how to how to do some of some of those things and we can have a workflow that's easy and stress-free for everybody involved, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:50:54

Yeah, yeah. If you need funds, you know, to go on the flight, let me know, man. I'm there.

SPEAKER_11 1:50:59

Oh, you know what? I d that's right. I was gonna look at a flight down rather than driving. Yeah. I I I gotta do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:07

Everything is better.

SPEAKER_11 1:51:08

I gotta do that. I I need to do that. I'm gonna now it's on my list. It'll get done probably this evening. I'm gonna just look and see what the uh feasibility is and just have an idea so it's in my head while it's cooking, you know? That sort of thing. All right, man. All right. Well, listen, I will uh definitely be in touch, but I'll be traveling, so you know it's gonna be sporadic. Got my cell on me always, and you should uh know that you can call 247-365. Always look forward to chatting with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:41

Okay, I'm gonna call you about three in the morning. Do not disturb. You just said 24-7, I mean.

SPEAKER_12 1:51:55

No, I know, all right.

SPEAKER_11 1:51:56

Generalism. Man, thanks for making me smile. Have a good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:02

All right, man.

SPEAKER_11 1:52:03

All right, you all later. And that is how we do, ladies and gentlemen. Episode three is in the books. Thank you so much for your patience in getting this one out. Almost two hours long, and I have hours and hours and hours of content I can't wait to share with you. We'll find the time to edit it. This is just too much fun. We hope you'll give us your opinion. Give us a call. 541-314-4271. But if you don't, no worries. We got this. Well, except that I don't really mind if you share this, so maybe feel free to do that. You know, share and share alike, that sort of thing. Speaking of copyrights, though, special thanks to Joe Daniels, copyright owner, co-writer, and original drummer from LocalH, for permission to use Bound for the Floor by LocalH as our show's theme song. Check out our Patreon community at patreon.com forward slash nerds and nonsense for more information on getting involved or supporting the show. If you're listening via nerdsandnonsense.com, simply click on the Support the Show link to learn more. Be great and do great things, my friends.