NN - EP13 - From Mount Rushmore To Metadata: Patriotism, Privacy, And Facial Recognition Policy

Originally released July 2020

We trace a line from a calm July 4th at home and a clip of JFK’s call to service to a charged look at masks & politics, Mount Rushmore pageantry, and the ethics of facial recognition. Along the way, we separate tech from policy, argue for consent and oversight, and ask for small, practical acts of civic duty.

• JFK’s 1961 call to civic action and shared responsibility
• Patriotism, public gatherings, and basic health safeguards
• Mask myths vs lived experience under protective gear
• Viral county hearing as a case study in misinformation
• Social media incentives that drive outrage and division
• Facial recognition capabilities vs misuse and weak policy
• Clearview AI’s scraping and Cambridge Analytica parallels
• Wrongful arrest as a failure of procedure and corroboration
• Privacy in public, consent-based evidence, and oversight
• Encryption backdoors and why they always get exploited

I don't know about you, but I feel we've really made some progress in the last five years...said nobody in the last 12 months. We did it!

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And Holiday Setup
• 1:29 JFK’s Call To Civic Duty
• 3:10 Satire: Political Constipation
• 4:15 Trump At Mount Rushmore
• 6:20 Patriotism, Protests, And Public Health
• 8:36 Palm Beach Mask Hearing Meltdown
• 11:30 Mask Reality Check And Military Training
• 13:55 Wear A Mask And We Over Me
• 15:50 Social Media, Division, And Civic Roles
• 18:05 Enter Facial Recognition Debate
• 20:10 Clearview AI And Data Scraping
• 22:14 Cambridge Analytica Parallels
• 24:00 Consent-Based Evidence Collection
• 26:00 Policy vs. Tech: Misuse, Not Math
• 28:05 Wrongful Arrest And Proper Limits
• 30:00 Privacy In Public And Platforms
• 32:10 Data As The Asset And Backdoors

Transcript

SPEAKER_15: 0:30

The nonsense was recorded to hard drive in front of a previously recorded studio audience. Hey everybody, how's it going? Welcome to the show. I am your host, Larry Compton, the lone nerd in this episode of Nerds and Nonsense, but we got plenty of nonsense for you. M3 will be joining me here in a little bit. We'll be talking about Independence Day weekend, some of the things in the news lately, and we'll get into facial recognition, a hot topic here lately with the public and in the technology area. People walking away from the technology, pointing fingers at the technology, calling it all kinds of bad names and things of that nature. But first, Independence Day weekend. Hopefully you had a great one. I had a quiet one at home with the family, which was just a blessing. It was very, very peaceful and relaxing, and we had great weather, and I dropped some more knowledge from JFK, John F. Kennedy's inaugural address from 1961. A little clip from that here for you.

SPEAKER_13: 1:57

Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country. Ask not what America will do for you what together we can do for the freedom of man.

SPEAKER_15: 2:27

A very powerful message, very powerful words. John F. Kennedy, his inaugural dress from 1961. I played about the last four minutes of it in a clip released on Independence Day, along with a little nonsense from me. But so if you haven't checked that out, go ahead and grab that or the link in the description to get to JFKlibrary.org and listen to the entire speech, because it was well worth it. Only about 15 minutes or so, and certainly much better than most of the stuff you'll find on TV and radio these days. So just my opinion. Plenty of nonsense coming up with Music Man Mark. Next. Earlier today in Washington, D.C., another career politician said something really, really stupid. Officials are concerned that ignorance and stupidity has blatantly crossed party lines and unfortunately has made its way to those appointed by elected officials as well. We spoke with a high profile former politician who recently left office and asked to remain anonymous.

SPEAKER_01: 3:35

I don't know what happened. I remember when I announced my campaign for this position, but after that it's all a blur. I began babbling like an idiot, making promises I couldn't keep, attacking my political opposition, and generally always feeling like I was full of shit. Literally, my doctor said it's a chronic case of political constipation. I knew I should have stepped down right then and there, but they said they'd stop paying me if I did.

SPEAKER_15: 3:57

Do not be alarmed if you recognize these symptoms in your elected or appointed officials. There is hope, according to health experts. Many of these babbling idiots are turning to normal as soon as their sorry ass is voted or kicked out of office. You don't say.

SPEAKER_02: 4:12

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

SPEAKER_15: 4:15

You see Trump out at Mount Rushmore?

SPEAKER_02: 4:18

No, man.

SPEAKER_15: 4:22

Hey, I've got it. I've got to try something. You ready? You ready? This is CBS News. CBS, I think. Can you hear that?

SPEAKER_11: 4:32

Yep. As fireworks lit up over Mount Rushmore for the first time in a decade, President Trump delivered a fiery defense of the founding fathers.

SPEAKER_03: 4:43

I am here as your president to proclaim before the country and before the world, this monument will never be desecrated. These humans will never be defamed.

SPEAKER_11: 4:58

Their legacy will never, ever be destroyed. The president lashed out at protesters seeking to remove controversial historical figures from their place on pedestals.

SPEAKER_03: 5:10

Our nation is witnessing a merciless campaign to wipe out our history, to fame our heroes, erase our values, and indoctrinate our children.

SPEAKER_15: 5:25

Indoctrinate our children, even. Oh man. Oh. I mean, listen, I'm all I agree. I I agree about the monuments to some effect. There are some, you know, that I think, you know, it requires discussion. It doesn't require destroying them without discussion. In my opinion, but hey, that's just my opinion. I uh but I I do agree with some of what he says about, you know, erasing history, which, you know, it sucks to admit, but uh I do agree with some of that. Right. But you know, it's the normal fire them up, you know, patriotism attack, you know, right? Indoctrinate our children. There nobody's trying to indoctrinate our children with their you know beliefs about you know past historical figures.

SPEAKER_02: 6:19

The people that support him don't even know history, man. They don't got education. This ain't about, man, this is all just about fire and fighting.

SPEAKER_15: 6:26

Yeah. That's it. It it it absolutely cracks me out. But it's that that patriotism theme that, you know, really of course, 4th of July at Mount Rushmore. You know, how how much more patriotic could you be, except that you're asking people to put health and well-being, you know, aside uh in order to come uh celebrate with you. That that I disagree with, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 6:54

They'll be okay, man. It's all right.

SPEAKER_15: 6:56

As do as do all medical experts, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 6:59

Uh but you know your gatherings.

SPEAKER_15: 7:01

Do you? Yes, Bill Burr would as well. I'm I'm sure he would. I just know I I wish, I bet Bill Burr would support the gatherings, right? I mean, that makes sense. Thinning the herd. Thinning the herd, my friend. Thinning the herd. Hey, how about this? Palm Beach County. Um, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_14: 7:24

No. My name is Butch, and I'm an American patriot. See that flag? I would die for that flag. The constitution that you are supposed to uphold? I would die for that.

SPEAKER_04: 7:39

What happened to you?

SPEAKER_05: 7:45

Some more of that. It is appalling that each and every one of you sitting up there as human beings, part of the human race, the only race that we have, with suggest to muffle people, to put masks on our face, to keep us from breathing oxygen, to get us to become sickly.

SPEAKER_08: 8:06

You preach pseudoscience and safety. Does anyone care about preserving the liberty of the people who pay your salaries? Some of you up there smirking and smiling at public comments to which you do not agree. I have the photos and they're shameful.

SPEAKER_15: 8:22

I'm smiling.

SPEAKER_00: 8:23

They want to throw God's wonderful breathing system out the door. You're all turning your backs on it. Can you prove that it's good for people to breathe carbon dioxide over and over and over again?

SPEAKER_07: 8:38

What about PTSD from child abuse situations? I was left in a hot car. You want to cover my face? I'm going to hyperventilate because I remember being stuck in that hot car. What about people like me? We don't matter because of the greater good, right?

SPEAKER_06: 8:49

I own a firearms business. Correct. Now I think you might agree with me that it would be ludicrous for me to allow someone into my shop to purchase a firearm who's wearing a mask, whose face I cannot see.

SPEAKER_10: 9:04

We will get together and do a citizen's arrest on every single human being that goes against the freedom of choice. Okay? You cannot mandate. You can you literally cannot mandate somebody to wear a mask, knowing that that mask is killing people.

SPEAKER_09: 9:23

You're not God, and since masks are harmful, where there is risk, there should be choice. You're removing our freedoms and stomping on our constitutional rights by these communist dictatorship orders or laws you want to mandate.

SPEAKER_15: 9:37

Yeah. Wow. Holy cow. Wow. Everybody has talked about this, but I've been waiting to play that for you for like since what two weeks now? Ten days? Like, as soon as I heard it, I'm like, oh, I gotta get Mark's comments on this live, man. And I'll have the links in the description. That was a clip right from the Telegraph, UK, the Telegraph out of the UK, and their coverage on Palm Beach County's mandatory mask debate. You are gonna be are gonna be arrested, sir.

SPEAKER_02: 10:12

Citizens are arrest. Well, I see you smirking and smiling.

SPEAKER_15: 10:16

Oh, I know, man.

SPEAKER_02: 10:17

I say, yes, we smirk and smile the same way you would at a child attempting to do something way out of its league. But you're like, that's cute. That's cute. He's not gonna succeed, but that's cute. He's trying. Exactly.

SPEAKER_15: 10:30

I appreciate your passion. I understand and appreciate your passion. Even, you know, I don't, you know, mean to be heartless at all, but the facts are the facts, folks. And there are, you know, ways of containing your mucus and snot and sneezing that aren't going to affect your breathing, even if you've been in traumatic situations with limited breathing. So I I can say that pretty confidently because I've worn a number of different types of masks throughout my life.

SPEAKER_02: 11:01

Yes, buddy, we sit over six to seven hours at a time. In the army when you have all your chemical shit.

SPEAKER_15: 11:16

Yes. You know, uh I love telling the times I've been to the gas chamber. Another kind of uh group idiocy. You're competing. I'm more immune to CS than you are. No, I'm more immune than you are.

SPEAKER_02: 11:32

I can go longer without my mask, you idiot. We know this much. We inhaled it twice a year every year we was in the service.

SPEAKER_15: 11:43

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 11:44

Every six months you gotta train.

SPEAKER_15: 11:46

I just thought it was like whenever we'd be out doing operations and like and you you, you know, we do join operations and have other people going through the same. It was such a trip to see how, you know, they had they were it was so different for them because they hadn't, you know, been exposed to it as much, that sort of thing. But back to the whole mask thing. Listen, folks, they can mandate a mask for the greater good. And yes, it is for the greater good. And all you have to do is, you know, the one lady I I was gonna let it keep going, but I'll like I said, I'll have the links in the description. But you know, Trump going out and having this event at uh Rushmore, if you saw the video footage, again, just asinine, absolutely asinine, in my opinion. And this isn't a partisan, I'm not the type of person to be partisan. I I people know I dislike Trump, but that that was since the 80s, long before any TV show or political interest, which I'm still not convinced he has. Political interest. But in any case, I've never enjoyed his message, which is complete absolute authority and hate and division to try and uh subjugate uh rather than you know uh help people or you know, help people help themselves even better, right? Let's help people help themselves. I'm definitely not a far left, I'm definitely not far right. So, like most Americans, I think I fall somewhere in between. But with that particular gentleman, I do have obvious disagreements with him as a person, period. So all that said, wear a damn mask. If you're gonna go out in public, wear a friggin' mask for you know that Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 13:38

Yes, this is your chance to shine.

SPEAKER_15: 13:43

Simple. Make something of yourself. You know, I just got done talking. I did a release yesterday on Independence Day. I played a clip of guess who? Jifk, JFK, uh, from his 61 inaugural dress. So if you haven't heard that, you know, but I played like the last four minutes roughly of his inaugural dress, which essentially talks about we're all in this together. You know, we is all of us. It's you know, the disassociation that continues to uh propagate because of freaking, you know, all these new media forbes with Twitter and social media and everything. And now the disassociation is just crazy, man. People are us them, us them, us them, rather than, you know, we. You're a part of the government. You are. You are, whether you believe it or not, you are part of the government, and whether or not you're involved in it is entirely up to you, right? Just as much you can vote. That's that's the lowest bar, right? Uh pay taxes, vote, you know, not be a criminal. There's all kinds of levels, right? You can volunteer in your community, you can go to work for the government, you can run for office, you can become a police officer, try and implement change from within, do research into the areas that you're most interested in, or you can just bitch and moan and you know do nothing absolutely worth a shit as far as changing the situation. And I particularly I I choose to try and make change to the best of my ability. That's what I'm about.

SPEAKER_02: 15:28

So absolutely.

SPEAKER_15: 15:30

The other thing, you know, I had been meaning to get to was this facial recognition discussion lately that's been in the news. I don't know if you've seen any of that, but like all these companies walking away from facial recognition technology because of uh ACLU and everybody and their brother, you know, in and up.

SPEAKER_02: 15:51

That was something I was just kind of born with myself. Other people have to acquire it.

unknown: 15:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 15:57

Must be special because I can recognize faces like POW. Well, you know it's needed, man. It's just automatic in my body. It's purely organic.

SPEAKER_15: 16:07

Right. Yes. You've been you you were the original facial recognition detection detection system for the US military. I think it really all started back with, I don't know if you s remember any of the news about ClearView AI, that that company that was providing and provides a service to law enforcement for uh facial recognition technology, uh, essentially claiming that you know they're the Google of uh face matching, you know, that sort of thing. And, you know, essentially their CEO, uh CTO saying, you know, hey, our data eventually, he's you know, our data came from publicly available sources. We scraped it from YouTube, we scraped it from Facebook, we scraped it from all these social media sites, which, you know, is explicitly, you know, called out in those platforms terms of use that you are not to do. Well, how do we know this? Well, let's think about Cambridge Analytica, right? 2013, 2014. I don't know if you remember that whole deal, but we did some episodes on it as well, because it's gonna continue to happen over and over and over as new methods get developed. People are gonna abuse the system. It's already done. They have the data. It's that they're you're you're not getting it back. You know, it's one of those situations. But in the news recently, they're saying Victoria Police over in Australia emails reveal that Clearview AI is dodgy direct marketing. And the story, this was on ZDNet a week ago, essentially goes on to talk about their, you know, providing free trials to, you know, beat cops and and people that don't have decision-making processes as far as acquiring the technology, you know, and trying to get them to convince the decision makers, essentially, being a little bit underhanded about it. But the story, and again, I'll have the link in the in the in the description, mentions where do these photographs come from. And this is what I was talking about, as detailed in the New York Times in uh February. Clearview had a database of three billion photos collected from websites such as YouTube, Facebook, Venmo, LinkedIn. And as reported by Sister Site CNET, tech giants Google, Facebook, and Microsoft have sent Clearview AI de cease and desist letters for scraping images hosted on their platforms. And it goes on. This this is the exact same scenario that we had with Cambridge Analytica and the Facebook scraping of data and the API allowing any app developer or game developer on the platform access to all of that data. I know this firsthand because I've you know uh accessed it through API stuff during my patent development uh concept, which my you know, the my my patent pending patent that I that I was a system for uh collecting uh evidence from the public, from their mobile devices, photos, videos, that sort of stuff, right? But voluntarily submitted and anonymously submitted if they so wish, a platform to allow that to happen and automate some of it. But the decision to collect it had to be made by the person submitting it. And so, of course, that is inherently going to introduce problems in and of itself, but that's the method that I chose, and I still think is the way to go with this from a law enforcement perspective. But in any case, so through that, you know, I was in talks with folks that were using the APIs for various things and other law enforcement platforms for obtaining information, you know, uh when we're doing an investigation and searching and trying to find out uh information about somebody. Well, you're putting it all out there. I'm Facebook, it's out there, right? It's like this whole privacy thing. Listen, I am a huge, huge privacy advocate, and especially when it comes to data and digital information. And that's the big thing here. It's not the facial recognition technology in this ClearView AI situation. The facial recognition technology has nothing to do with the ethics and morals of the company and where they're obtaining their data to use that. With that said, the discussion lately has largely been around the technology and how it violates the rights and targets communities of color, which targets communities of color? I disagree with. This came from MIT Technology Review, which you and I read regularly together, Mark.

SPEAKER_02: 20:50

Well, I've been to Massachusetts many times.

SPEAKER_15: 20:54

But they they have a story the other day that says the two-year fight to stop Amazon from selling face recognition to police. So this group is very proud of being part of the reason that some of these companies have come out to stop selling or put a moratorium on selling facial recognition technology to police. The story says this week's moves from Amazon, Microsoft, and IBM mark a major milestone for researchers and civil rights advocates in a long and ongoing fight over face recognition and law enforcement. In the summer of 2018, nearly 70 civil rights and research organizations wrote a letter to Jeff Bezos, demanding that Amazon stop providing face recognition technology to governments as part of an increased focus on the role that tech companies were playing in enabling U.S. government's tracking and deportation of immigrants. It called on Amazon to stand up for civil rights and civil liberties, as advertised, it said. Recognition, the name of their platform, is a powerful surveillance system readily available to violate rights and target communities of color. And the story goes on. The part I disagree with is target communities of color. The error rates that have to do with ethnicity and racial differences in the images and image data do not have anything to do with mistaking one race for another. They have to do with misidentifying within a race. So it's not like, you know, the system is gonna uh mix up, you know, a pale-skinned, you know, Irish guy with, you know, a really dark-skinned gentleman from, you know, someplace else. That's not the frailty of the system. But people just keep blowing smoke and raising stink and not thinking about the fundamental issues here. It's not the facial recognition technology, it's how it's implemented. And in fact, you know, the federal government has come out with advice for years. They've had advice out there for state, local, and other uh regional law enforcement entities on how to leverage the technology and that it should never be considered identification. It should never be the sole sole evidence used for probable cause. It should never, you know, be used for anything other than an investigative lead. Period. Yet we had a case just recently that fired all this up again. Facial recognition leads to the first wrongful U.S. arrest. Activists say Robert Williams spent over a day in custody in January after face recognition software matched his driver's license photo to a surveillance video of someone shoplifting. This was on CBS News and link will be in the description as well. But again, completely they had a policy in place at that agency. He did not follow it, right? I don't know all the details, but from what I do know through this and other stories, they did have other or other evidence. Some of that other evidence might have not been as weightful as it should have been. But this wasn't just a situation that they used only the facial, but they had a policy in place, as all state, local, regionals should by now. I mean, the feds have put out, you know, some direction and guidance on that for years. And I recently did a post on that as well. So people are just in an uproar over the technology. What about lie detectors? Right? We don't we don't allow allow lie detector evidence in, but we use it as an investigative tool, right? As an investigative lead. Whether or not you take one, when you do take one, those results, all I mean, that's an investigative lead that's often leveraged when they're at the end of the rope, right? And that's essentially what law enforcement does. Is that's their job, that's what they're tasked with, is to follow as much information as they have and get to the truth. The truth being the critical point, right? And so we have to be honest about what the capabilities of these technologies are and how they're leveraged. But my my you know, my biggest problem is people today's belief in their, you know, the privacy situation, you know, you they they just believe everything when you know you're out in public, you're in public, folks, right? You yeah, you're in public. If someone's surveillance system for, you know, their business captures me in their business, I went into their business, knowing full well that they may be trying to protect their business and have me under surveillance. Now, it in most areas and you know, signs are required and that sort of thing, but I don't have an expectation of privacy the moment I step outside my front door, not even the moment I step off my property, right? You know, so I'm I'm not as alarmed as many others are uh when it comes to that side of this whole discussion. But that clear view AI stuff, that privacy, you know, that bothers me. That's why I'm not on Facebook the way I was, uh, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 26:25

Me neither, the way I was. The way I was. It was at all.

unknown: 26:30

Ever.

SPEAKER_02: 26:31

What's the use?

SPEAKER_15: 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:34

How would that make my life better?

SPEAKER_15: 26:36

Well, it's really great for uh connecting groups. It really is. Again. Yeah. Yes, again, he says, but like you know, I've leveraged it for my uh uh forensic video uh technicians and analysts because there just wasn't a group, a way to do that online. And it's been a very, very helpful thing for you know everyone who's used it and and most you know for free for most of my career. And and so there's lots of that. I mean, I saw that very early on, you know, as many did, of course, as I started, turned it into rather than just an online database, a community in 2007. But, you know, MySpace, Facebook, you know, and then as that whole thing progressed, and Twitter, YouTube's explosion, and all of these platforms, man, it's just everywhere all the time. I I'm just not, you know, part of the getting off from Facebook and Twitter, frankly, was streamlining. Man, I got too many places. I don't need to be, I'm I'm not trying to, you know, my goal isn't to attract followers. So I I don't need to be wasting time on multiple platforms. If if you want to hear what I've got to say or be a part of the discussion, actually, I'd prefer that. You know, you come, you listen, and then you provide feedback. That's how it works. If you don't, that's fine. I'm doing all right.

SPEAKER_02: 28:07

How many people need to know that I aspire to uh have an electric dirt bike or well want to get that new guitar someday?

SPEAKER_15: 28:14

I do. That's the point. That's the entire point. I do this for me and you and my mom and Stacy and Ryan, and that's why I do this, you know, because I enjoy it. Sometimes I I want to be careful and you know not to lose that um the this time around, you know. This this is fun. I want to continue doing this. Plus, you know, it's uh it is nice. That's another thing about social media because it's uh it's nice to have a place where you feel like you're being hurt, where you feel like people are listening to you. So, you know, especially when you're isolated in your house for months, right? Trying to uh make sure that you don't spread the you know latest pandemic, you know, those sorts of things can be helpful to keep people connected. But, you know, my mom's 83 and she's doing all right without it. Yeah. And you know, your mom and dad aren't on social media, they're doing alright without it.

SPEAKER_02: 29:17

They are, my mom, they're on Facebook.

SPEAKER_15: 29:19

Are they?

SPEAKER_02: 29:20

Oh my mom reads it like the freaking Bible. Oh, they tell me crazy shit because Facebook, just like your phone, it'll figure out what you like to read and it'll give it to you. And then it'll lock even more crazy shit. Yeah, let's try them on this.

unknown: 29:35

Let's see if it buys.

SPEAKER_02: 29:38

My parents don't understand that. My brother, they don't understand that their devices will feed their needs. Well, they it'll learn what they want and give it to you. Most people don't understand that, man.

SPEAKER_15: 29:48

Most.

SPEAKER_02: 29:48

No, they don't.

SPEAKER_15: 29:49

It's really crazy. It it's part of this whole data-driven. I mean, data became the most valuable asset years ago. You know, we're talking almost a decade of data being the most valuable asset on earth. And, you know, so when things like Clearview AI say, well, I'm gonna scrape all these platforms through their APIs against their own terms of use and get this data, once they've got it, well, who knows the the history, where it goes, copies, so on and so forth. It's out there, it's done. So now you got to deal with after the fact. That's the thing about encryption, right? That whole encryption debate I was talking about. You build a backdoor, it's going to be exploited. Period. I don't give a you know crap what you believe. The facts are the facts. If you have a backdoor, it'll eventually be exploited. And you know, the what you're risking is the you know safety of everyone in be in between that time.

SPEAKER_02: 30:44

You know, it's absolutely sounds like you're secretly talking about anal sex. No, what? Your backdoors and all that business. Wow. That one secretly it's gonna be invaded. Secretly? Exploited. You're gonna exploit my back door?

SPEAKER_15: 31:00

I just I just had a flash of uh Frank Zappa there for some reason.

SPEAKER_02: 31:05

Secretly. This man has had his back door exploited. He didn't like it.

SPEAKER_15: 31:13

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SPEAKER_12: 32:11

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